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He's a pretty smart guy. Which is why it's so bizarre that he expected to get away with blatantly "borrowing" billions of dollars without permission. Even if h

He's a pretty smart guy. Which is why it's so bizarre that he expected to get away with blatantly "borrowing" billions of dollars without permission. Even if he didn't lost one penny he would still have gone to prison for many years.

lawn 3y ago
> He's a pretty smart guy. Really? It seems to me all evidence points to the opposite.
lukev 3y ago
The tendency of the tech community to view "smartness" as a single axis variable is a major achilles heel. Clearly, it is possible for the same person to be both quite smart and deeply, profoundly stupid. To use a relatable metaphor, there's a reason D&D splits mental stats into separate components: intelligence, wisdom, charisma and alignment aren't the same! Except in real life there's probably way more variables even than those and they're often correlated or anti-correlated in various ways. This is the primary reason conversations on HN involving SBF, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Steve Jobs, Eliezer Yudkowsky etc can be so tedious.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  I wouldn't say this is unique to the world of tech. In fact I suspect that most people working as software engineers are well aware that there's different "kinds" of intelligence, and you'll instead find this single-axis thinking more among the "general population." It is certainly something everyone needs to be reminded of. Being (or sounding) smart on one subject doesn't make you smart on others by definition. As someone who has surfed the Dunning-Kruger wave myself many times, I'm super cautious of looking out for other people doing the same.
  - lukev 3y ago
    Eh, maybe. The tech community seems predisposed to a certain kind of hero worship based on perceived intellect that I don't really see in the rest of society.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Yeah I forget the exact quote & attribution but theres a saying that holds true for any of these big names - Don't be surprised when someone who is exceptional/think different in a way you do like, is also exceptional/think different in ways you don't like.
  - lukev 3y ago
    I'm not even sure I like this framing with "exceptionalism" (positive or negative) applied to these folks. It's totally possible for someone who is exceptional in one way (e.g. rich and famous) to be quite pedestrian, boring and mundane otherwise.
    - steveBK123 3y ago
      I mean one example was Jobs was an exceptionally good product/UX guy but an exceptionally bad parent. Arguably similar for Musk, lol. Depending on your views you might see Thiel as an exceptionally good tech exec but an exceptionally bad political kingmaker (unleashing forces he regrets & can't control). But yes, also terribly mundane. Musk for example seems to fall for every midtwit conspiracy and agitprop post on the social media platform he owns, like your random poorly educated uncle.
- fatbird 3y ago
  I’m friends with several university professors. One of them has a comment on RateMyProfessor that reads “She’s the dumbest smart person I’ve ever met.” I’ve also spent several years working with Honeywell, with a bunch of people with masters degrees or PhDs in engineering. They are all, collectively, some of the dumbest people I know. And they’re uniquely dumb in smart ways. They don’t pull on a door marked push because they missed the sign; they pull on it because they come up with a complicated rationalization that “push” actually means “pull.” And I think I’ve identified the cause: lack of continual contact with reality. I’ve yelled on a conference call with a bunch of Honeywell engineers “STOP FUCKING HYPOTHESING AND CHECK THE LOGS!” Smart people are prone to forming their own little bubbles; groups of smart people even moreso. They suffer from a lack of continually having their bubbles popped by abrasive facts, or dumb people who point out the obvious. I’m having work done on my house, and my contractor is an endless source of simple, “this is how it works” data. I conceive of interesting structures for my wife’s greenhouse, and then he explains why it won’t work in single syllable words. This is the primary reason conversations on HN involving SBF, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Steve Jobs, Eliezer Yudkowsky etc can be so tedious Exactly.
  - SpaceManNabs 3y ago
    In 2015, I told my circle of friends at college that Elizabeth Holmes was a fraud, and that she was only able to get so far by masking as the female Steve Jobs. I simply stated that what she was claiming was impossible. I got called a misogynist lol. Really smart people sometimes get lost in the structure of narrative and forget to do basic queries. I also learned that you gotta be careful who you criticize even if you are totally right. People won't change their opinion on your statement when the evidence vindicates you.
jjtheblunt 3y ago
He’s an extremely entitled bratty guy fits better, from everything I’ve been able to see.
dwb 3y ago
He's just a rich failson. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=failson#17489589 https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=failson#1748...
nabla9 3y ago
"pretty smart guy" fallacy is the incorrect assumption that high psychometric intelligence is all that you need to act rationally. Anything related to executive functions, like like impulse control, irritability, attention problems, mental disorders, personality disorders, and many other things–including bad attitude and too much self confidence–can make smart people act foolishly.
tim333 3y ago
Smart people do dumb things sometimes. If he'd gambled the customer money and won the gambling he'd probably have got away with it.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> He's a pretty smart guy People keep saying this. I’ve seen literally no evidence of it. Open to having my mind changed. (Working for Jane Street for three years is insufficient without knowing what he accomplished.)
- arethuza 3y ago
  Is there really much difference between being a "pretty smart guy" and convincing people that you are a "pretty smart guy"?
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Is there really much difference between being a "pretty smart guy" and convincing people that you are a "pretty smart guy"? Yes. Very deeply, yes.
    - arethuza 3y ago
      So how do you tell and how long do you have to wait - because the difference only ever seems to come visible with a certain degree of hindsight and/or luck.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > how do you tell and how long do you have to wait The day we can define it is the day we can create it. Until then, genius and insanity will be indistinguishable until after the fact. (That said, there are clues.)
      - denton-scratch 3y ago
        > So how do you tell I suppose you can't; not definitively. I find it very hard to tell whether someone brighter than me is only a little brighter than me, or dramatically brighter than me. My heuristics are: * Nobody is dramatically brighter than me; I don't believe in geniuses. * Bullshit is a giveaway. If I detect bullshit (e.g. "word salad"), then he's not brighter than me. [Edit] In my experience, barristers/courtroom attorneys tend to be very bright, and also very good with language. Language is "what they do". Word salad doesn't seem to me to be a good strategy, when facing a good lawyer.

lawn 3y ago

> He's a pretty smart guy. Really? It seems to me all evidence points to the opposite.

lukev 3y ago

The tendency of the tech community to view "smartness" as a single axis variable is a major achilles heel. Clearly, it is possible for the same person to be both quite smart and deeply, profoundly stupid. To use a relatable metaphor, there's a reason D&D splits mental stats into separate components: intelligence, wisdom, charisma and alignment aren't the same! Except in real life there's probably way more variables even than those and they're often correlated or anti-correlated in various ways. This is the primary reason conversations on HN involving SBF, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Steve Jobs, Eliezer Yudkowsky etc can be so tedious.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
I wouldn't say this is unique to the world of tech. In fact I suspect that most people working as software engineers are well aware that there's different "kinds" of intelligence, and you'll instead find this single-axis thinking more among the "general population." It is certainly something everyone needs to be reminded of. Being (or sounding) smart on one subject doesn't make you smart on others by definition. As someone who has surfed the Dunning-Kruger wave myself many times, I'm super cautious of looking out for other people doing the same.
- lukev 3y ago
  Eh, maybe. The tech community seems predisposed to a certain kind of hero worship based on perceived intellect that I don't really see in the rest of society.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
steveBK123 3y ago
Yeah I forget the exact quote & attribution but theres a saying that holds true for any of these big names - Don't be surprised when someone who is exceptional/think different in a way you do like, is also exceptional/think different in ways you don't like.
- lukev 3y ago
  I'm not even sure I like this framing with "exceptionalism" (positive or negative) applied to these folks. It's totally possible for someone who is exceptional in one way (e.g. rich and famous) to be quite pedestrian, boring and mundane otherwise.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    I mean one example was Jobs was an exceptionally good product/UX guy but an exceptionally bad parent. Arguably similar for Musk, lol. Depending on your views you might see Thiel as an exceptionally good tech exec but an exceptionally bad political kingmaker (unleashing forces he regrets & can't control). But yes, also terribly mundane. Musk for example seems to fall for every midtwit conspiracy and agitprop post on the social media platform he owns, like your random poorly educated uncle.
fatbird 3y ago
I’m friends with several university professors. One of them has a comment on RateMyProfessor that reads “She’s the dumbest smart person I’ve ever met.” I’ve also spent several years working with Honeywell, with a bunch of people with masters degrees or PhDs in engineering. They are all, collectively, some of the dumbest people I know. And they’re uniquely dumb in smart ways. They don’t pull on a door marked push because they missed the sign; they pull on it because they come up with a complicated rationalization that “push” actually means “pull.” And I think I’ve identified the cause: lack of continual contact with reality. I’ve yelled on a conference call with a bunch of Honeywell engineers “STOP FUCKING HYPOTHESING AND CHECK THE LOGS!” Smart people are prone to forming their own little bubbles; groups of smart people even moreso. They suffer from a lack of continually having their bubbles popped by abrasive facts, or dumb people who point out the obvious. I’m having work done on my house, and my contractor is an endless source of simple, “this is how it works” data. I conceive of interesting structures for my wife’s greenhouse, and then he explains why it won’t work in single syllable words. This is the primary reason conversations on HN involving SBF, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Steve Jobs, Eliezer Yudkowsky etc can be so tedious Exactly.
- SpaceManNabs 3y ago
  In 2015, I told my circle of friends at college that Elizabeth Holmes was a fraud, and that she was only able to get so far by masking as the female Steve Jobs. I simply stated that what she was claiming was impossible. I got called a misogynist lol. Really smart people sometimes get lost in the structure of narrative and forget to do basic queries. I also learned that you gotta be careful who you criticize even if you are totally right. People won't change their opinion on your statement when the evidence vindicates you.

jjtheblunt 3y ago

He’s an extremely entitled bratty guy fits better, from everything I’ve been able to see.

dwb 3y ago

He's just a rich failson. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=failson#17489589 https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=failson#1748...

nabla9 3y ago

"pretty smart guy" fallacy is the incorrect assumption that high psychometric intelligence is all that you need to act rationally. Anything related to executive functions, like like impulse control, irritability, attention problems, mental disorders, personality disorders, and many other things–including bad attitude and too much self confidence–can make smart people act foolishly.

tim333 3y ago

Smart people do dumb things sometimes. If he'd gambled the customer money and won the gambling he'd probably have got away with it.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> He's a pretty smart guy People keep saying this. I’ve seen literally no evidence of it. Open to having my mind changed. (Working for Jane Street for three years is insufficient without knowing what he accomplished.)

arethuza 3y ago
Is there really much difference between being a "pretty smart guy" and convincing people that you are a "pretty smart guy"?
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Is there really much difference between being a "pretty smart guy" and convincing people that you are a "pretty smart guy"? Yes. Very deeply, yes.
  - arethuza 3y ago
    So how do you tell and how long do you have to wait - because the difference only ever seems to come visible with a certain degree of hindsight and/or luck.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > how do you tell and how long do you have to wait The day we can define it is the day we can create it. Until then, genius and insanity will be indistinguishable until after the fact. (That said, there are clues.)
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      > So how do you tell I suppose you can't; not definitively. I find it very hard to tell whether someone brighter than me is only a little brighter than me, or dramatically brighter than me. My heuristics are: * Nobody is dramatically brighter than me; I don't believe in geniuses. * Bullshit is a giveaway. If I detect bullshit (e.g. "word salad"), then he's not brighter than me. [Edit] In my experience, barristers/courtroom attorneys tend to be very bright, and also very good with language. Language is "what they do". Word salad doesn't seem to me to be a good strategy, when facing a good lawyer.