7 ms·

This demonstrably false. This is a paranoid take that disregards the actual facts. The same was said of cars when horses were popular. Economies of scale will

This demonstrably false. This is a paranoid take that disregards the actual facts. The same was said of cars when horses were popular. Economies of scale will make EVs cheaper. The more produced the cheaper they get. The hidden costs of ICE vehicles means that they are only priced as low as they are because of significant discounting of their real effects on air quality, climate, and diminishing oil supply. If those were priced accurately, they would be significantly more expensive to operate. No, rich people aren't trying to take your ICE cars, the rest of us are because they're destroying our only habitat. We want our children to grow up in a world where humans can thrive instead of hiding underground to keep cool from deadly heat and starving from the lack of stable food production.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>We want our children to grow up in a world where humans can thrive instead of hiding underground to keep cool from deadly heat and starving from the lack of stable food production. Sure, but most of global harming pollution doesn't come from ICE cars and it won't be solved by people switching to EVs. EV evangelists should know that EV manufacturing is 70% more environmentally damaging than building ICE cars. Also, mining enough materials to replace all ICE cars on the road today with EVs would literally obliterate the planet. So no, the reality is we literally can't all have EVs, or cars of any kind for that matter, if we really wish to save the planet, instead of pretending that we are just to sell EVs.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > Sure, but most of global harming pollution doesn't come from ICE cars and it won't be solved by people switching to EVs. It's a necessary but not sufficient part of the solution. Solving all greenhouse gas sources in our world except the ones involved in switching from ICE to EV is nowhere near enough. > EV evangelists should know that EV manufacturing is 70% more environmentally damaging than building ICE cars. Manufacturing in general also needs to be made greener. Concrete, steel, etc. are, even by themselves, each such heavy emitters as to be environmentally unsustainable unless the tech is improved. Fortunately, other people are in fact working on those, they don't have to be on the same schedule as EVs. Also, the main damage from cars isn't the manufacturing — over the vehicle lifetimes, the emissions from literally burning fuel far out-mass the manufacturing emissions. > Also, mining enough materials to replace all ICE cars on the road today with EVs would literally obliterate the planet. Not even close, and I don't know why your beliefs are so badly calibrated. > So no, the reality is we literally can't all have EVs, or cars of any kind for that matter, if we really wish to save the planet, instead of pretending that we are just to sell EVs. If we even attempt to solve greenhouse gas emissions just by reducing overall economic consumption, then whoever ignores that edict can trivially take over the world, because the "just be less rich" method requires returning to a pre-industrial-era society with a maximum sustainable global population of about 790 million, 90%-98% of whom are then at or under the UN extreme poverty threshold of 2.47 USD/day inflation-adjusted 2022 dollars. No, the only sustainable solution is one that's sustainable by every measure: political and economic, not just environmental.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >Also, the main damage from cars isn't the manufacturing — over the vehicle lifetimes, the emissions from literally burning fuel far out-mass the manufacturing emissions. Again, personal vehicle ICE fuel burning is only a relatively small part of global emissions (about 9%). People are just fixate on it because it happens in their back yard so that's all they see everyday as the main polluter instead of the giant mines in Australia and Africa or the giant factory towns in China, or the oil wells, air travel, shipping industry, etc. But there are lower hanging fruit which are a lot more environmentally damaging than those 9% of ICEs, except nobody's talking about them berceuse those are all big industry related and it's much cheaper to push the blame on the 9% powerless peasants driving ICEs so you can sell them EVs, instead of dealing and hurting the profits of the giant polluting industries out there that account for the other 90% and onto which the lifestyle of the world is tied to. Rich western countries moving to EVs in 10 years will not alleviate this if countries like China, India and from Africa mine and burn even more fossil fuels as they industrialized further and lift even more people out of poverty. >Not even close, and I don't know why your beliefs are so badly calibrated. It's not my belief, it's been scientifically proven that the planet's climate cannot sustain the emissions from the mining and manufacturing efforts of transitioning all ICE cars on the road today to EVs. >If we even attempt to solve greenhouse gas emissions just by reducing overall economic consumption, then whoever ignores that edict can trivially take over the world That's the reason the climate issue will never be solved and why we're heading towards the iceberg of environmental destruction full speed ahead. Because everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody wants to tone down on consumerism, wealth building and lifestyle enabled by fossil fuels, oil, gas, petroleum and manufacturing. Something has to give. You either want to be rich enough to feed and house every mouth on the planet, or you want to have a habitable planet with less well off mouths on it. You can't have both with our current lifestyle and trajectory. That's why we're doomed to destroy ourselves. Because no country or individual wants to compromise on their wealth and lifestyle. On this path we can expect extreme climate phenomenons to increase in strength and frequency, along with more famine, political and economic instability, wars and refugees. EVs alone won't save us from this.
    - ben_w 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>We want our children to grow up in a world where humans can thrive instead of hiding underground to keep cool from deadly heat and starving from the lack of stable food production. Sure, but most of global harming pollution doesn't come from ICE cars and it won't be solved by people switching to EVs. EV evangelists should know that EV manufacturing is 70% more environmentally damaging than building ICE cars. Also, mining enough materials to replace all ICE cars on the road today with EVs would literally obliterate the planet. So no, the reality is we literally can't all have EVs, or cars of any kind for that matter, if we really wish to save the planet, instead of pretending that we are just to sell EVs.

ben_w 3y ago
> Sure, but most of global harming pollution doesn't come from ICE cars and it won't be solved by people switching to EVs. It's a necessary but not sufficient part of the solution. Solving all greenhouse gas sources in our world except the ones involved in switching from ICE to EV is nowhere near enough. > EV evangelists should know that EV manufacturing is 70% more environmentally damaging than building ICE cars. Manufacturing in general also needs to be made greener. Concrete, steel, etc. are, even by themselves, each such heavy emitters as to be environmentally unsustainable unless the tech is improved. Fortunately, other people are in fact working on those, they don't have to be on the same schedule as EVs. Also, the main damage from cars isn't the manufacturing — over the vehicle lifetimes, the emissions from literally burning fuel far out-mass the manufacturing emissions. > Also, mining enough materials to replace all ICE cars on the road today with EVs would literally obliterate the planet. Not even close, and I don't know why your beliefs are so badly calibrated. > So no, the reality is we literally can't all have EVs, or cars of any kind for that matter, if we really wish to save the planet, instead of pretending that we are just to sell EVs. If we even attempt to solve greenhouse gas emissions just by reducing overall economic consumption, then whoever ignores that edict can trivially take over the world, because the "just be less rich" method requires returning to a pre-industrial-era society with a maximum sustainable global population of about 790 million, 90%-98% of whom are then at or under the UN extreme poverty threshold of 2.47 USD/day inflation-adjusted 2022 dollars. No, the only sustainable solution is one that's sustainable by every measure: political and economic, not just environmental.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >Also, the main damage from cars isn't the manufacturing — over the vehicle lifetimes, the emissions from literally burning fuel far out-mass the manufacturing emissions. Again, personal vehicle ICE fuel burning is only a relatively small part of global emissions (about 9%). People are just fixate on it because it happens in their back yard so that's all they see everyday as the main polluter instead of the giant mines in Australia and Africa or the giant factory towns in China, or the oil wells, air travel, shipping industry, etc. But there are lower hanging fruit which are a lot more environmentally damaging than those 9% of ICEs, except nobody's talking about them berceuse those are all big industry related and it's much cheaper to push the blame on the 9% powerless peasants driving ICEs so you can sell them EVs, instead of dealing and hurting the profits of the giant polluting industries out there that account for the other 90% and onto which the lifestyle of the world is tied to. Rich western countries moving to EVs in 10 years will not alleviate this if countries like China, India and from Africa mine and burn even more fossil fuels as they industrialized further and lift even more people out of poverty. >Not even close, and I don't know why your beliefs are so badly calibrated. It's not my belief, it's been scientifically proven that the planet's climate cannot sustain the emissions from the mining and manufacturing efforts of transitioning all ICE cars on the road today to EVs. >If we even attempt to solve greenhouse gas emissions just by reducing overall economic consumption, then whoever ignores that edict can trivially take over the world That's the reason the climate issue will never be solved and why we're heading towards the iceberg of environmental destruction full speed ahead. Because everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody wants to tone down on consumerism, wealth building and lifestyle enabled by fossil fuels, oil, gas, petroleum and manufacturing. Something has to give. You either want to be rich enough to feed and house every mouth on the planet, or you want to have a habitable planet with less well off mouths on it. You can't have both with our current lifestyle and trajectory. That's why we're doomed to destroy ourselves. Because no country or individual wants to compromise on their wealth and lifestyle. On this path we can expect extreme climate phenomenons to increase in strength and frequency, along with more famine, political and economic instability, wars and refugees. EVs alone won't save us from this.
  - ben_w 3y ago