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Robotaxis 'do not belong in the city of Los Angeles,' lawmaker says
- Bluecobra 3y agoIt would be funny if the endgame here is Elon Musk tunnels and people just end up stuck in robo Tesla taxi jams underground with no sunlight.
- reset2023 3y agoA significant % of the workforce can work from home or "office hubs", instead of moving ppl from A to B. Technologies like Vision Pro are a better solution.
- 0max 3y agoLiving in California all my life and seeing local municipalities essentially pretend they're still in the 1970s and adhere to car orientation and single family homes for their land use really makes me wish these jurisdictions would lose local control with policies like the Builder's Remedy.
- joncrane 3y agoI know this sounds terrible, so please understand I don't agree with this approach, but. I've had the thought that third world countries will end up being the testing ground for autonomous vehicles. Peoples' safety isn't taken as seriously in developing countries, and the local authorities are easier to bribe. The cost for actually functioning autonomous vehicles will be some mistakes. It's up to society to decide whether the ultimate value is worth those accidents. The modern world has a history of offloading certain types of hazards (such as hazardous waste, dangerous factory conditions, etc) to the third world and I see this as another use case for that pattern. Edit: damn, guess people don't like unpleasant truths. Downvotes aren't supposed to be a disagreement button!
- theonlybutlet 3y agoThe road conditions are not ideal though, poor road markings, road conditions, other drivers not following the rules of the road. Hardly a place to test cars.
- djoldman 3y agoCounter take is that it's the perfect environment from a learning perspective: if you succeed there, you can succeed in easier conditions.
- joncrane 3y agoI agree. The hard part of autonomous driving is when people and things behave unpredictably and there aren't many context clues. However, as someone who regularly visits and drives in a 3rd world country, there's a "vibe" to it if you will, and once you learn the vibe it becomes natural. (It seems to be that people respect the laws of physics over the laws of the land, if you will) If you train the cars on a 3rd world country's driving patterns, further refinement will be necessary to fit in better in a more developed country. But early on it will deal with stuff like driving on a road with no lines at the edges or between lanes, one lane bridges, sharing the road with pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists, and animals, etc.
- theonlybutlet 3y agoAbsolutely, when they need to test on hard-mode.
- Etheryte 3y agoNot really, hectic traffic and nonexistent roads aren't a superset of organized traffic and good roads. If you take a human driver from a country with hectic traffic and put them in one with organized traffic they'll struggle and vice versa, the same would hold here. Being skilled in one doesn't really help you out in the other.
- djoldman 3y agoThey're both a superset of the problem space: safely navigate from A to B. And broadly speaking, with more varied training data you can achieve better out of sample results.
- slibhb 3y agoCompanies are already testing self-driving cars in SF, Phoenix, and LA. So much for this theory.
- joncrane 3y agoYes, and the article to which we're replying is a story about political pressure to STOP that testing.
- srackey 3y agoI fear it will end up more like nuclear energy: a clearly better, objectively safer technology that nevertheless is very easy to fear-monger against. Development won’t be pushed to the Third World, but rather those political systems less susceptible to being swayed by nonsense public pressure like that.
- 4k3aa4 3y agoI feel like nuclear energy is a bad example, because when it goes wrong it's "one big scary thing" as opposed to the papercuts that would add up with dangerous robotaxis. Also the benchmark for car danger is already so incredible low. You can see in this thread the argument that "cars are already killing people, so we as a society just have to decide how many it's ok to have die while we figure out to make them work." As far as "objectively safer" - not sure how that works (or matters). Since when has safety actually mattered in terms of public opinion? If safety mattered we wouldn't have cars on city streets at all, all last mile would be slow & public and we'd have built our towns & cities to support that.
- Etheryte 3y agoI'm not sure this holds up to scrutiny. So far we have numerous companies testing autonomous vehicles in the states and personally I don't know any that test in developing countries.
- joncrane 3y agoI'm not saying it's happening now, but a shift might occur. You're correct when you say >we have numerous companies testing autonomous vehicles in the states The article we are responding is is about increasing political pressure against that practice.
- micromacrofoot 3y agothanks for sharing that messed up thought with us I guess
- kunalgupta 3y agoThe AI vs human wars begin
- Axsuul 3y agoI am constituent in this guy's district and I would much, much rather bike next to robotaxis in LA vs. human drivers.
- micromacrofoot 3y agono way, most people have some incentive to avoid murdering another, because it will likely ruin or severely interrupt their lives - a robotaxi killing someone will result in an insurance payout, the company won’t even be shut down
- rob74 3y agoDrivers who kill pedestrians or cyclists don't consciously decide to murder them (at least not in 99.99% of cases), they do it out of negligence - opening a door without looking into the mirror, turning right at an intersection without looking for pedestrians or cyclists, not stopping at pedestrian crossings etc. etc.
- micromacrofoot 3y agoI'll rephrase, humans have some incentive to avoid negligence despite being imperfect and occasionally being negligent anyway. Robotaxis are imperfect and have no such incentives.
- cameronh90 3y agoWe know from decades of safety research that threatening to ruin people's lives doesn't prevent accidents. All it does is make people lie about why the accident happened.
- micromacrofoot 3y agoIf there were no consequences for running someone over... a lot more people would get run over. I don't think we need much research for this. If a robotaxi runs someone over, there's no one at the wheel to be held accountable... and the company has many incentives and resources to lie.
- paulette449 3y agoThe article infers, not unreasonably IMO, that the support for this push comes neither from citizens nor fellow lawmakers but from labor unions with whom the lawmaker (Councilmember Hug Soto-Martínez) is closely aligned. > "This has everything to do with making sure that the streets of Los Angeles are safe ... It’s also about making sure that we protect jobs" > "During the Q&A that followed, TechCrunch asked if any constituents had raised specific concerns about robotaxis. Soto-Martínez replied that he “would have to check,” > "Just two LA lawmakers were present at the conference on Wednesday"
- guil177 3y agoI never understood the longterm logic of protecting jobs by not using tools. Any tools goal is to reduce work.
- lelanthran 3y ago> I never understood the longterm logic of protecting jobs by not using tools. Ever read thelastpsychiatrist? The website is dead now (and he may be too, for all I know), but he was on the money when talking about why a specific amount is paid by the state to the unemployed - it's the exact amount of money that would stop the idle masses from burning down the city. You don't understand it now, but you will if we had a transition to completely automated driving in a short period - those millions of unemployed drivers, that are now never going to be employed, are a risk to the city.
- RHSeeger 3y ago> it's the exact amount of money that would stop the idle masses from burning down the city. That seems awfully pessimistic. There's a couple different reasons - To stop the masses from uprising (as noted) - Because the health of the society as a whole depends on the health of the people in the society. And sometimes you need safety nets for the people in that society, because people can't always do for themselves. Fire departments, unemployment, health care, education; these all fall into that category in one way or another. Some places provide all of these, some provide none, and most provide somewhere in the middle. In the end, we provide for those that can't because it's better for the society that we live in if we do. And we are all served by a better healthier society.
- jfengel 3y agoI'd have thought LA was perfect for robotaxis. It is famously a driving, not walking, city. Everything is very spread out, so you have to drive to every place and park there. It's also famous for its traffic, something automation can handle well (just follow the car in front of you). The real problems come with the unexpected, especially human beings jumping out in front of you (unarmored or in a car). Mind you the city could really benefit from walkable neighborhoods and public transit, but that requires more planning than most lawmakers are up for.
- matthewfelgate 3y agoHuman driver hits pedestrian.Robotaxis get banned! I propose we ban human taxi drivers in Los Angeles until Unions can prove they are safe for our roads.
- zardo 3y agoWasn't the story, human driver hits pedestrian. Pedestrian flung in front of robotaxi. Robotaxi comes to a complete stop. Robotaxi pulls over, running over the pedestrian in the process. Robotaxi owner shows a video to the DMV that ends before the car runs over the pedestrian.
- yieldcrv 3y agoprotecting jobs lol, you can only find a taxi at the airport satellite parking lot, they’ve given up completely! LA could use robotaxis in some hot spots I could see independently governed cities like West Hollywood or Glendale getting robotaxis
- VHRanger 3y agoLA is also jot the place for - public transit - walking - biking They really really want you to waste your life in traffic
- zach 3y agoI agree, robotaxis do not belong in LA, at least culturally. The collective suffering of working-class commuters ascending and descending the income gradient on packed freeways is the thing that powers LA, like children’s screams powered the city in Monsters, Inc. Robotaxis can never replace that.
- jareklupinski 3y agoand how NYC is powered by young professionals looking into rich peoples' brownstones https://www.tiktok.com/@morningbrew/video/7237525132841880874 https://www.tiktok.com/@morningbrew/video/723752513284188087...
- martythemaniak 3y agoIf you're not familiar with the concept of Vetocracy, now's a good time to read up on it. While most of us are aware of NIMBYs blocking housing, small businesses, bike lanes, etc, the concept is very far-reaching and we're watching it develop here in real-time with respect to autonomous vehicles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vetocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vetocracy
- 4k3aa4 3y agoWait, so you are saying that any time the public pushes back on a new potentially dangerous technology it's a "vetocracy"?