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Tesla is not doing anything illegal as far as I understand. Looks like there is an expectation that Tesla behaves in a certain way in Sweden because "that's wa

Tesla is not doing anything illegal as far as I understand. Looks like there is an expectation that Tesla behaves in a certain way in Sweden because "that's way we've always done it" but that's not in law. Tesla is sticking to the law, as far as I understand. I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Of course, if workes and unions disagree they can also use their legal rights to try to force Tesla to reconsider. But if they wanted to make all companies behave in a certain way they they should have put that in law.

danaris 3y ago
When it comes to ethics, the law should always be seen as the bare minimum, not the bar that we as society should actually expect people and companies to clear.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  The problem is that what you call "ethics" is arbitrary. The law applied uniformly is actually a safety net to protect everyone against arbitrary actions. That's why the rule of law has been so important in the struggle for free societies and liberty.
RandomLensman 3y ago
Companies are totally entitled to stick to the law, but they also need to then deal with the fact that narrow compliance with the law might bring them into conflict with parts of society (who in turn might stick to the law in dealing with them). That said, we already have determined that generally just "sticking to the law" isn't a great defense in all situations anyway.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  In a free society based on the rule of law, you cannot demand that anyone goes beyond the law. That's a key principle. Now, as mentioned, in business other parties can also use their legal rights to bring about negotiations, but let's not depict Tesla as horrible for simply staying within the law...
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    We have long determined that the rule of law is only one component of a functioning society. There is a lot of stuff beyond the rule of law that makes things work. Anyone not understanding that will have trouble in any society.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      And mob rule is a recipe for a nasty society...
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        How is that in any way mob rule? Is having care and consideration for your fellow citizens mob rule, for example? What you want is much closer to mob rule, as seen by societies using the law for horrible purposes. Narrow legalistic views allow for the most horrible atrocities.
      - arghwhat 3y ago
        The proper term is "democracy" when the mob is the majority of a society.
        mytailorisrich 3y ago
        In a democracy you pass laws and those laws are applied uniformly, and again noone can demand that anyone else goes beyond the law.
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        People can and do demand that - no sure why that is so difficult to understand. And there could be consequences for legal but nasty behavior and those consequences would also not violate any laws. Societies are more than just narrow legalistic machines and checking completely out of broader society is tough/comes with consequences.
        3y ago
livrem 3y ago
It is true that is not the law, but it is an agreement between unions and employer organizations in Sweden going back at least to 1938 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement). Following the law is a very low bar because of that, since employers and unions are supposed to be able to sort things out between themselves. If companies begin to just "stick to the law" the system will break down obviously and a new system will have to replace it.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Yes. That also smacks of corporatism and "old boys club" probably in part because Sweden is a small country and, I imagine, everyone used to know everyone else in business and political circles. Internationalisation is putting this to the test.
arghwhat 3y ago
Solely sticking to the law means paying minimum wage with maximum hours for any work type with no benefits. Negotiation and better terms are not part of the law, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to do without. Union agreements are the standard way to do this here, and refusing to negotiate with unions means refusing to cooperate with the work force market. They can disagree with unions and the people within the law, just as they can fail as a business from making enemies of the whole country within the law. Civil customs and agreements are not meant to be law.
- masklinn 3y ago
  There is no minimum wage in sweden, because in central european labour fashion they expect labour and companies to cooperate and come to a mutually agreeable and socially beneficial rate. Although germany recently ended up introducing a legal minimum wage because an other US corp was being too shit about it (I don’t remember if it was amazon or something like walmart).
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Actually, the EU is pushing for minimum wages in all countries but Sweden is pushing back because their system apparently does not need it...
    - hnbad 3y ago
      Sweden does not have a minimum wage because unions are more efficient at ensuring livable wages than legislation and setting a legal minimum wage in this scenario would only benefit the bargaining position of employers by giving them a low-ball reference value. This is very different from the neoliberal argument against minimum wages which boils down to "if we need to pay workers a livable wage our profit margins would be tighter" or more charitably "if we need to pay workers a livable wage some jobs would become unprofitable and we'd have to lay those people off" (which only holds true when the jobs are non-essential to the company in such a way that laying people off doesn't mean outsourcing them - a lot of low-paying jobs are absolutely essential to business operations but are seen as cost centers because they don't directly contribute to revenue). The reason the EU is "pushing for minimum wages" is that the EU pushed for the liberalisation of markets in EU countries some twenty years ago (and its various extensions thereof) and that led to an increase in wealth gaps, a loss of income security, gutting of social welfare systems and the proliferation of temp work agencies (which e.g. in Germany were illegal up to that point and offer an easy way to sidestep unions). Minimum wage is a bandaid for the gashing wound left by market liberalisation.
prmoustache 3y ago
Well nothing in the law say you need to be polite, say hello, thank you and good bye. However good luck having decent collaboration and commercial entries if you yell at everyone and insult them.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Criticism is fine, but I think people should be careful not to conflate the two. It’s fine to say “I think Tesla should pay more and not hire scabs” The difference between law and opinion determines how this is enforced. If actions are illegal, the government forces compliance. If it is a matter of opinion, then it is up to the involved parties to sort it out themselves. This could be based on their negotiating leverage. Strikes, scabs, boycotts, and sympathy strikes are all fair game
mcv 3y ago
> I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Are you serious? Should you only be allowed to criticise companies (and people?) when they break the law? That would be the end of free speech. Obeying the law is not synonymous with doing good. The law is the very bottom line, but there's tons of shitty behaviour that's perfectly legal. That doesn't mean it's okay. There are tons of ways in which you can be an asshole without doing anything illegal. You won't go to prison, but people will criticise and avoid you. Don't make the law your only basis for morality. Laws can be wrong, and they're certainly not enough. Because if you do that, you're basically demanding that every aspect of society be completely legislated, and that's a really bad idea.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Why so emotional? There's different levels in criticism. Here Tesla seems to be hammered simply for sticking with the law. This is excessive, IMO: if what they are doing is so outrageous then that should not be allowed in law.
  - mcv 3y ago
    You're missing the point. Tesla gets hammered for treating their employees poorly and rejecting reasonable demands to fix the problem. > Why so emotional? I don't know. Ask Elon. He hasn't been very rational lately.

danaris 3y ago

When it comes to ethics, the law should always be seen as the bare minimum, not the bar that we as society should actually expect people and companies to clear.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
The problem is that what you call "ethics" is arbitrary. The law applied uniformly is actually a safety net to protect everyone against arbitrary actions. That's why the rule of law has been so important in the struggle for free societies and liberty.

RandomLensman 3y ago

Companies are totally entitled to stick to the law, but they also need to then deal with the fact that narrow compliance with the law might bring them into conflict with parts of society (who in turn might stick to the law in dealing with them). That said, we already have determined that generally just "sticking to the law" isn't a great defense in all situations anyway.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
In a free society based on the rule of law, you cannot demand that anyone goes beyond the law. That's a key principle. Now, as mentioned, in business other parties can also use their legal rights to bring about negotiations, but let's not depict Tesla as horrible for simply staying within the law...
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  We have long determined that the rule of law is only one component of a functioning society. There is a lot of stuff beyond the rule of law that makes things work. Anyone not understanding that will have trouble in any society.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    And mob rule is a recipe for a nasty society...
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      How is that in any way mob rule? Is having care and consideration for your fellow citizens mob rule, for example? What you want is much closer to mob rule, as seen by societies using the law for horrible purposes. Narrow legalistic views allow for the most horrible atrocities.
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      The proper term is "democracy" when the mob is the majority of a society.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        In a democracy you pass laws and those laws are applied uniformly, and again noone can demand that anyone else goes beyond the law.
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        People can and do demand that - no sure why that is so difficult to understand. And there could be consequences for legal but nasty behavior and those consequences would also not violate any laws. Societies are more than just narrow legalistic machines and checking completely out of broader society is tough/comes with consequences.
        3y ago

livrem 3y ago

It is true that is not the law, but it is an agreement between unions and employer organizations in Sweden going back at least to 1938 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltsj%C3%B6baden_Agreement). Following the law is a very low bar because of that, since employers and unions are supposed to be able to sort things out between themselves. If companies begin to just "stick to the law" the system will break down obviously and a new system will have to replace it.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
Yes. That also smacks of corporatism and "old boys club" probably in part because Sweden is a small country and, I imagine, everyone used to know everyone else in business and political circles. Internationalisation is putting this to the test.

arghwhat 3y ago

Solely sticking to the law means paying minimum wage with maximum hours for any work type with no benefits. Negotiation and better terms are not part of the law, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to do without. Union agreements are the standard way to do this here, and refusing to negotiate with unions means refusing to cooperate with the work force market. They can disagree with unions and the people within the law, just as they can fail as a business from making enemies of the whole country within the law. Civil customs and agreements are not meant to be law.

masklinn 3y ago
There is no minimum wage in sweden, because in central european labour fashion they expect labour and companies to cooperate and come to a mutually agreeable and socially beneficial rate. Although germany recently ended up introducing a legal minimum wage because an other US corp was being too shit about it (I don’t remember if it was amazon or something like walmart).
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Actually, the EU is pushing for minimum wages in all countries but Sweden is pushing back because their system apparently does not need it...
  - hnbad 3y ago
    Sweden does not have a minimum wage because unions are more efficient at ensuring livable wages than legislation and setting a legal minimum wage in this scenario would only benefit the bargaining position of employers by giving them a low-ball reference value. This is very different from the neoliberal argument against minimum wages which boils down to "if we need to pay workers a livable wage our profit margins would be tighter" or more charitably "if we need to pay workers a livable wage some jobs would become unprofitable and we'd have to lay those people off" (which only holds true when the jobs are non-essential to the company in such a way that laying people off doesn't mean outsourcing them - a lot of low-paying jobs are absolutely essential to business operations but are seen as cost centers because they don't directly contribute to revenue). The reason the EU is "pushing for minimum wages" is that the EU pushed for the liberalisation of markets in EU countries some twenty years ago (and its various extensions thereof) and that led to an increase in wealth gaps, a loss of income security, gutting of social welfare systems and the proliferation of temp work agencies (which e.g. in Germany were illegal up to that point and offer an easy way to sidestep unions). Minimum wage is a bandaid for the gashing wound left by market liberalisation.

prmoustache 3y ago

Well nothing in the law say you need to be polite, say hello, thank you and good bye. However good luck having decent collaboration and commercial entries if you yell at everyone and insult them.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Criticism is fine, but I think people should be careful not to conflate the two. It’s fine to say “I think Tesla should pay more and not hire scabs” The difference between law and opinion determines how this is enforced. If actions are illegal, the government forces compliance. If it is a matter of opinion, then it is up to the involved parties to sort it out themselves. This could be based on their negotiating leverage. Strikes, scabs, boycotts, and sympathy strikes are all fair game

mcv 3y ago

> I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Are you serious? Should you only be allowed to criticise companies (and people?) when they break the law? That would be the end of free speech. Obeying the law is not synonymous with doing good. The law is the very bottom line, but there's tons of shitty behaviour that's perfectly legal. That doesn't mean it's okay. There are tons of ways in which you can be an asshole without doing anything illegal. You won't go to prison, but people will criticise and avoid you. Don't make the law your only basis for morality. Laws can be wrong, and they're certainly not enough. Because if you do that, you're basically demanding that every aspect of society be completely legislated, and that's a really bad idea.

mytailorisrich 3y ago
Why so emotional? There's different levels in criticism. Here Tesla seems to be hammered simply for sticking with the law. This is excessive, IMO: if what they are doing is so outrageous then that should not be allowed in law.
- mcv 3y ago
  You're missing the point. Tesla gets hammered for treating their employees poorly and rejecting reasonable demands to fix the problem. > Why so emotional? I don't know. Ask Elon. He hasn't been very rational lately.