4 ms·

> On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. It lasted for merely 15 yea

by sokols 3y ago

> On the other hand Albanians, as an ethnic group, had unprecedented political autonomy (Kosovo) and language rights in Yugoslavia. It lasted for merely 15 years, from 1974 till 1989 when Milosevic and his clique brutally removed it. This autonomy was always a thorn in the eye of the serbian establishment and they never stopped their efforts to undermine it, which they succeeded in 1989.

wheelerof4te 3y ago
Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Please, try to promote Texas independance from USA and see how that goes.
- sokols 3y ago
  > Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Kosovo War happened later, not during the above mentioned period.
  - wheelerof4te 3y ago
    Yes, it happened after the initial response by Serbian anti-terrorist groups. Then, West became involved and Clinton wanted something to distract from his little raping scandal at home. So, they decided to bomb a country fighting foreign-backed terrorists on its soil.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      The Clinton scandal at the time of the bombing of Serbia was about a consensual relationship (his two-year extramarital affair with Monica Lewinsky). While Clinton did have other sex scandals, those came well before 1999. Your writing about a “little raping scandal” suggests you do not have a good knowledge of this history and your posts on the subject cannot be taken seriously.
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        Clintons are plain cringe even if Kosovo deifies them
      - wheelerof4te 3y ago
        Yeah, disregard my facts about the Clinton family's war crimes just because a known rapist for once did not rape a woman.
        OfSanguineFire 3y ago
        For facts, one prefers to listen to people who don’t make basic factual errors. Also, that you are still commenting in this HN thread two days after it was posted, suggests you have an unhealthy ideological fixation with this topic.
- mgbmtl 3y ago
  In normal democracies, parties usually reach a balance that protects regional interests, and the interests of minorities in those regions. It's not easy, but when done in good faith, can be very effective at lowering support for violent rebellion. (greetings from Quebec, which rebelled a few times, and isn't immune to populist politicians, but nonetheless somewhat stable. I think investing into education also helps a lot, which is the opposite of what Texas is doing)
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Quebec is investing in education? Hahaha I'm not sure if that was a joke... >In Quebec, 25.5% of people aged 25 to 64 had a bachelor's degree or higher in 2016 > In 2012, 26% (4.1M out of 15.8M) of adult Texans had a bachelor's degree or higher; in 2021, that percentage increased to 32% (5.9M out of 18.6M) (As an aside, even a Texas Governor would probably not have said something close to the famous statement Parizeau made regarding "le vote ethnique" after the 1995 referendum ;). But as long as you are Quebecois, I guess the government is doing fine here I agree )
    - mgbmtl 3y ago
      Probably an accurate stat of today, but misses the point and context. I said "I think" that education helped people from Quebec to negotiate a better situation, rather than doing so by arms (up to the 1970s with the FLQ). I do think that squashing rebellions is a counter-productive way of solving conflicts, as Yugoslavia did (I also lived a few years in the Balkans, in a neighbouring country, and had a few good friends from ex-Yu with identity issues in the early 2000s). I also think education can help people understand topics such as majority/minority rights, rights/history of first nations, systemic racism, etc. many of which the current provincial government still denies (not immune to populist). Despite all that, and despite this province's completely train-wreck succession of governments since the 80s, what is taught now in schools is still better than in the 80s. That might be of an empirical feeling. My high school still had priests raping kids until the mid-90s and racism was rampant. I have a teen in a public high school, what they learn now is pretty neat. All thanks to teachers, of course, and not to governments. Texas and other states are now burning books (and I hope we don't get to that point). One could have a PhD in CS, but be a tech-bro ignorantly erring towards fascism. I don't call that education. I think how a society treats its minorities (whether cultural or things like accessibility) is the best measure of advancement. Quebec is no model on that either, but it's probably better than Texas. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/14/texas-most-book-bans-2022 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/14/texas-most-b...
medo-bear 3y ago
My point was that they lived better and more freely in socialist (pre Milosevic) Yugoslavia than in quite litteraly Stalinist Albania. Ironically the Albanian government in Kosovo now is persuing the same Milosevic-type policies, except against Serbs, by not granting them autonomy [0]. When it comes to nationalists, especially those in the Balkans, it really is same sh*t different flag. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Serb_Municipalities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Serb_Municipali...
- ardit33 3y ago
  Serbia is refusing to give autonomy to Preseva Valley too (Luigina e Presheves). Also, Hungarians minorities in the north don’t have it either. They have lots of soul searching as well.
  - helij 3y ago
    There are absolutely zero issue with Hungarian minority in Serbia. Presevo valley is whole other issue due to Kosovo and issues there where Serbs are regularly persecuted on a daily basis. Also, Albanians in the south of Serbia have higher autonomy than Serbs in Kosovo at the moment for example. It's interesting how roles in Kosovo reversed. Albanians being persecuted by Serbian authorities in the 80' and 90' and Albanians taking up arms and we have Serbs today taking up arms after being persecuted by Albanian authorities. Somehow though when Albanians are doing it it's allright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Please don't add to the hate. People there don't need this.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      Hungarians in Vojvodina don't actively pursue separatism, but if claim there is "zero issue", you obviously don't speak Hungarian. Just talking to random people in Subotica or wherever in their own language, it doesn't take more than a few minutes for an ethnic Hungarian to complain about being part of Serbia. Bitterness about Trianon, and even hopes for a Greater Hungary someday, are as commonly met in Vojvodina as in Hungary, Slovakia, Transcarpathia, or Transylvania. And since you were talking about Kosovo, one thing you often hear from Hungarians in Vojvodina is that they don’t give a shit about “Kosovo je Srbija” and they hate being associated with a country that keeps banging on about it.

by sokols 3y ago

wheelerof4te 3y ago

Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Please, try to promote Texas independance from USA and see how that goes.

sokols 3y ago
> Because that is what countries do when a part of them rebels and starts doing terror attacks on police. Kosovo War happened later, not during the above mentioned period.
- wheelerof4te 3y ago
  Yes, it happened after the initial response by Serbian anti-terrorist groups. Then, West became involved and Clinton wanted something to distract from his little raping scandal at home. So, they decided to bomb a country fighting foreign-backed terrorists on its soil.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    The Clinton scandal at the time of the bombing of Serbia was about a consensual relationship (his two-year extramarital affair with Monica Lewinsky). While Clinton did have other sex scandals, those came well before 1999. Your writing about a “little raping scandal” suggests you do not have a good knowledge of this history and your posts on the subject cannot be taken seriously.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      Clintons are plain cringe even if Kosovo deifies them
    - wheelerof4te 3y ago
      Yeah, disregard my facts about the Clinton family's war crimes just because a known rapist for once did not rape a woman.
      - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
        For facts, one prefers to listen to people who don’t make basic factual errors. Also, that you are still commenting in this HN thread two days after it was posted, suggests you have an unhealthy ideological fixation with this topic.
mgbmtl 3y ago
In normal democracies, parties usually reach a balance that protects regional interests, and the interests of minorities in those regions. It's not easy, but when done in good faith, can be very effective at lowering support for violent rebellion. (greetings from Quebec, which rebelled a few times, and isn't immune to populist politicians, but nonetheless somewhat stable. I think investing into education also helps a lot, which is the opposite of what Texas is doing)
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Quebec is investing in education? Hahaha I'm not sure if that was a joke... >In Quebec, 25.5% of people aged 25 to 64 had a bachelor's degree or higher in 2016 > In 2012, 26% (4.1M out of 15.8M) of adult Texans had a bachelor's degree or higher; in 2021, that percentage increased to 32% (5.9M out of 18.6M) (As an aside, even a Texas Governor would probably not have said something close to the famous statement Parizeau made regarding "le vote ethnique" after the 1995 referendum ;). But as long as you are Quebecois, I guess the government is doing fine here I agree )
  - mgbmtl 3y ago
    Probably an accurate stat of today, but misses the point and context. I said "I think" that education helped people from Quebec to negotiate a better situation, rather than doing so by arms (up to the 1970s with the FLQ). I do think that squashing rebellions is a counter-productive way of solving conflicts, as Yugoslavia did (I also lived a few years in the Balkans, in a neighbouring country, and had a few good friends from ex-Yu with identity issues in the early 2000s). I also think education can help people understand topics such as majority/minority rights, rights/history of first nations, systemic racism, etc. many of which the current provincial government still denies (not immune to populist). Despite all that, and despite this province's completely train-wreck succession of governments since the 80s, what is taught now in schools is still better than in the 80s. That might be of an empirical feeling. My high school still had priests raping kids until the mid-90s and racism was rampant. I have a teen in a public high school, what they learn now is pretty neat. All thanks to teachers, of course, and not to governments. Texas and other states are now burning books (and I hope we don't get to that point). One could have a PhD in CS, but be a tech-bro ignorantly erring towards fascism. I don't call that education. I think how a society treats its minorities (whether cultural or things like accessibility) is the best measure of advancement. Quebec is no model on that either, but it's probably better than Texas. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/14/texas-most-book-bans-2022 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/14/texas-most-b...

medo-bear 3y ago

My point was that they lived better and more freely in socialist (pre Milosevic) Yugoslavia than in quite litteraly Stalinist Albania. Ironically the Albanian government in Kosovo now is persuing the same Milosevic-type policies, except against Serbs, by not granting them autonomy [0]. When it comes to nationalists, especially those in the Balkans, it really is same sh*t different flag. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Serb_Municipalities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Serb_Municipali...

ardit33 3y ago
Serbia is refusing to give autonomy to Preseva Valley too (Luigina e Presheves). Also, Hungarians minorities in the north don’t have it either. They have lots of soul searching as well.
- helij 3y ago
  There are absolutely zero issue with Hungarian minority in Serbia. Presevo valley is whole other issue due to Kosovo and issues there where Serbs are regularly persecuted on a daily basis. Also, Albanians in the south of Serbia have higher autonomy than Serbs in Kosovo at the moment for example. It's interesting how roles in Kosovo reversed. Albanians being persecuted by Serbian authorities in the 80' and 90' and Albanians taking up arms and we have Serbs today taking up arms after being persecuted by Albanian authorities. Somehow though when Albanians are doing it it's allright ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Please don't add to the hate. People there don't need this.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Hungarians in Vojvodina don't actively pursue separatism, but if claim there is "zero issue", you obviously don't speak Hungarian. Just talking to random people in Subotica or wherever in their own language, it doesn't take more than a few minutes for an ethnic Hungarian to complain about being part of Serbia. Bitterness about Trianon, and even hopes for a Greater Hungary someday, are as commonly met in Vojvodina as in Hungary, Slovakia, Transcarpathia, or Transylvania. And since you were talking about Kosovo, one thing you often hear from Hungarians in Vojvodina is that they don’t give a shit about “Kosovo je Srbija” and they hate being associated with a country that keeps banging on about it.