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Whenever state was dominated by Serbs is debatable, given that Tito was Croat. I would argue that communism did us all great deal of damage and that Yugoslavia

by slx87 3y ago

Whenever state was dominated by Serbs is debatable, given that Tito was Croat. I would argue that communism did us all great deal of damage and that Yugoslavia was mistake. But implying that Serbs committed atrocities against other people during peaceful times is simply not true. Once civil war started, atrocities were committed by all sides, not just Serbs. I have lost family members in war and I have friends who as kids had to escape from Sarajevo in early days of war to save their they lives (while their only crime was being born as Serbs). Unfortunately, today everything is presented in simple black/white, good vs bad guys way without ever scratching under the surface.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> But implying that Serbs committed atrocities My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia. This is a separate issue from who committed what, and your trying to bring up that debate is not helpful to this discussion.
- dotemacs 3y ago
  > My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia I was driven by an Albanian taxi driver abroad, who loves ethnonationalist Albanian politician Albin Kurti, but at the same time believed that Yugoslavia was amazing and that he wished that it never split. I can use many examples like that that can hinder your NATO flavoured narrative. It goes both ways.
- jakupovic 3y ago
  Serbs did commit atrocities and ethnic cleansing Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]
fx1994 3y ago
I should remind you Tito died in 1982 and that resulted with instability, inflation and war. I was there. Felt it all. Tito fought croats and serbs since we they both had radical groups. But we all fought wars against one nation. Wonder why. Guess we were all bad.
- vasac 3y ago
  Tito passed away in 1980 at the age of 88, and his influence had been waning for at least a decade before his death. His final significant power move occurred in 1972 when he dismissed the Croatian leadership. However, it's worth noting that he also dismissed the Serbian leadership, seemingly in an effort to maintain a semblance of parity. The constitutional changes in 1974 paved the way for Yugoslavia's eventual disintegration, and it became a question of whether the republic leaderships could come to any agreements. As for concerns about Serb domination in Yugoslavia, it's important to consider that each political reform in Yugoslavia since the end of World War II had weakened the federal administration while strengthening the republic administrations. By the time the last constitution was established in 1974, each republic had its own president, government with various ministries, police, secret police, and some form of military forces (territorial defense). On the federal level, each of these institutions had become a mere shadow of what they were just 20 years earlier. To pass any decision at the federal level, a majority vote was required and Serbia had one vote just like everybody else (that will change once Milosevic got control over two autonomous provinces in Serbia but that happened only in 1989-1990). In the case of Serbia proper, by 1974, two autonomous provinces, Vojvodina and Kosovo, had gained so much autonomy that they had voting power on the federal level. These two regions of Serbia already possessed legislative autonomy, meaning they could pass laws for their own territories without consulting the rest of Serbia. Consequently, there was a central part of Serbia that found itself somewhat beholden to these two autonomous provinces.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    It is possible for all of that to be true (I believe it) and for Serb domination to be a thing, too. (Empires can crumble while trying to adapt, too. There were parallels in the Soviet union break-up.)
emptyfile 3y ago
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jakupovic 3y ago
>But implying that Serbs committed atrocities against other people during peaceful times is simply not true. This is true. Serbs did commit ethnic cleansing and atrocities across Bosnia and Croatia. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War#:~:text=Ethnic%20cleansing%20occurred%20during%20the,Republika%20Srpska%20and%20Serb%20paramilitaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnia.... Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]
- SergeAx 3y ago
  Croats committed ethnic cleansing against Serbs, which led to mass exodus: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm#Refugee_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm#Refugee_cris... Interestingly, Croatian football hooligans still using this fact to insult Serbs in 2023. Kosovo's Albanians committed war crimes against Serbs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Massacres https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Massa... Those are the facts, and I don't understand what's the point in denying it.
  - jakupovic 3y ago
    You must have missed the part that says: `According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions"` Serbs committed many bad acts against everyone involved and there is no moral equivalence.

by slx87 3y ago

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> But implying that Serbs committed atrocities My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia. This is a separate issue from who committed what, and your trying to bring up that debate is not helpful to this discussion.

dotemacs 3y ago
> My post reported the perceptions that non-Serbs often have about Serbs, and how this can hinder yugonostalgia I was driven by an Albanian taxi driver abroad, who loves ethnonationalist Albanian politician Albin Kurti, but at the same time believed that Yugoslavia was amazing and that he wished that it never split. I can use many examples like that that can hinder your NATO flavoured narrative. It goes both ways.
jakupovic 3y ago
Serbs did commit atrocities and ethnic cleansing Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]

fx1994 3y ago

I should remind you Tito died in 1982 and that resulted with instability, inflation and war. I was there. Felt it all. Tito fought croats and serbs since we they both had radical groups. But we all fought wars against one nation. Wonder why. Guess we were all bad.

vasac 3y ago
Tito passed away in 1980 at the age of 88, and his influence had been waning for at least a decade before his death. His final significant power move occurred in 1972 when he dismissed the Croatian leadership. However, it's worth noting that he also dismissed the Serbian leadership, seemingly in an effort to maintain a semblance of parity. The constitutional changes in 1974 paved the way for Yugoslavia's eventual disintegration, and it became a question of whether the republic leaderships could come to any agreements. As for concerns about Serb domination in Yugoslavia, it's important to consider that each political reform in Yugoslavia since the end of World War II had weakened the federal administration while strengthening the republic administrations. By the time the last constitution was established in 1974, each republic had its own president, government with various ministries, police, secret police, and some form of military forces (territorial defense). On the federal level, each of these institutions had become a mere shadow of what they were just 20 years earlier. To pass any decision at the federal level, a majority vote was required and Serbia had one vote just like everybody else (that will change once Milosevic got control over two autonomous provinces in Serbia but that happened only in 1989-1990). In the case of Serbia proper, by 1974, two autonomous provinces, Vojvodina and Kosovo, had gained so much autonomy that they had voting power on the federal level. These two regions of Serbia already possessed legislative autonomy, meaning they could pass laws for their own territories without consulting the rest of Serbia. Consequently, there was a central part of Serbia that found itself somewhat beholden to these two autonomous provinces.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  It is possible for all of that to be true (I believe it) and for Serb domination to be a thing, too. (Empires can crumble while trying to adapt, too. There were parallels in the Soviet union break-up.)

emptyfile 3y ago

[dead]

jakupovic 3y ago

>But implying that Serbs committed atrocities against other people during peaceful times is simply not true. This is true. Serbs did commit ethnic cleansing and atrocities across Bosnia and Croatia. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War#:~:text=Ethnic%20cleansing%20occurred%20during%20the,Republika%20Srpska%20and%20Serb%20paramilitaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnia.... Ethnic cleansing occurred during the Bosnian War (1992–95) as large numbers of Bosnian Muslims (Bosniaks) and Bosnian Croats were forced to flee their homes or were expelled by the Army of Republika Srpska and Serb paramilitaries.[6][7][8][9] Bosniaks and Bosnian Serbs had also been forced to flee or were expelled by Bosnian Croat forces, though on a restricted scale and in lesser numbers. The UN Security Council Final Report (1994) states while Bosniaks also engaged in "grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions and other violations of international humanitarian law", they "have not engaged in "systematic ethnic cleansing"".[10] According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions".[10]

SergeAx 3y ago
Croats committed ethnic cleansing against Serbs, which led to mass exodus: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm#Refugee_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm#Refugee_cris... Interestingly, Croatian football hooligans still using this fact to insult Serbs in 2023. Kosovo's Albanians committed war crimes against Serbs: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Massacres https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Massa... Those are the facts, and I don't understand what's the point in denying it.
- jakupovic 3y ago
  You must have missed the part that says: `According to the report, "there is no factual basis for arguing that there is a 'moral equivalence' between the warring factions"` Serbs committed many bad acts against everyone involved and there is no moral equivalence.