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You're making big assertions without giving any details. > Ironically, the contingent of people that are most aggressive/ambitious about promoting public trans

You're making big assertions without giving any details. > Ironically, the contingent of people that are most aggressive/ambitious about promoting public transit are often the same that are most against taking the (admittedly, not always the most pleasant) steps needed to sell the idea to the masses. Like what?

decafninja 3y ago
For example - ensuring there aren't crazy drug addicted homeless persons raging about murdering everyone on the train. When issues like that are brought up, common responses from the pro-transit crowd include: "The psycho is completely harmless, just let him be. He has every right to be on the subway too." "Cars kill people!. The psycho will never hurt anyone!" "We have to pass Medicare-for-all and pass unconditional housing-first policies first. Until then, we can't/shouldn't do anything to the psycho!" To be fair: I am sympathetic with some of the above. However such statements will not help you sell improving/expanding public transit to the American public. And I know not every pro-transit person is like this. But there seems to be a sizable overlap. Also, anecdotal, but since the pro-bike and pro-transit crowd also do overlap - I've noticed a lot of people take up commuting or just traveling by bicycle in NYC the past few years. But the most common reason I hear is to specifically avoid taking the subway as much as possible due to dangers.
- TheDong 3y ago
  It seems like such a bizarre jump to say "if we build trains, simply riding the train will drive people to drugs and mass murder, causing a new problem outweighing the benefits of the train". If the train is not what is driving people to these heinous conditions, then it seems like this imagined problem is some unrelated thing. Should we not build any shopping malls or parks or roads until we can somehow be certain there won't be a "crazy drug addicted mass-murderer" who goes there? Should we halt the plan to build apartments on the chance a purple dragon might take up residence and burn the town down? For whatever it's worth, I've personally ridden busses in the US for years, taken subways and trains in no less than half a dozen US cities, and I've been murdered zero times so far. I don't see any reasonable path to "building more trains" leading to my odds of getting murdered going up.
  - decafninja 3y ago
    You're reading it wrong. Of course riding the train won't drive people to drugs or mass murder. Rather, drugs and the perceived threat of violent crime, as well as general unpleasantness, is what turns off people from embracing public transit. Build a brand new shiny transit system in the USA, and you'll still face the same problems without changing the culture or enforcement. Both will face massive public backslash - again, from many of the same people who are most pro-transit. You're falling victim to the same mentality I mentioned earlier of handwaving away the perceived concerns people have. I ride transit nearly ever day. Obviously I haven't been murdered or fallen victim to violence. But I commonly encounter individuals who I make sure I keep away from either because of threatening behavior or simple unpleasantness.
    - danny_codes 3y ago
      > without changing the culture or enforcement Fortunately, it is within our power to both change the culture and enforce it. Thought TBF the underlying reason is that America has a relatively abysmal safety net (healthcare being the most terrible of the lot), so you just have more people falling through the cracks onto the street.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  If the US has such an extreme problem with all public spaces, shouldn't that be addressed? No one else has that problem.
- kdmccormick 3y ago
  Yes, the progressive Left does have a problem where we can't seem to agree on how to make sure people feel safe and comfortable in the public spaces which we care so deeply about. Socialist blogger Freddie deBoer has several pieces along these lines [1]. As he points out, the people who shout the loudest on Twitter aren't necessarily the same people out there actually leading pro-transit and anti-car movements. FWIW, one of the most prominent anti-car-culture leaders, Chuck Maron of Strong Towns [2], is a self-declared conservative. So, you're cherry-picking the most extreme leftists to paint an exremely strawmanned version of the US pro-transit movement. You sound like you've either had some awful public transit experiences or perhaps watched a lot of scary news involving addicts on transit. At least here in Boston, where I've ridden transit regularly for a decade, I feel safe around other riders. The things that make me feel UNSAFE on transit is the state of the physical infrastructure, which is not the result of lefty anti-police rhetoric but is the result of transit underfunding, cost disease with US public works projects, and historically poor management culture at the MBTA. These are hard problems but they are abstolutely all fixable. The new general manager is already showing that management culture can be improved. Lastly, drug problems and povert in US cities can be clearly linked to the communities which were most devastated by highway expansion and transit defunding. There's a reason that the neighborhoods immediately adjacent to highways look hellish and depressing. So, it seems that you've declared that this problem which is at least in part caused by car culture cannot possibly be fixed by walking back car culture, because, obviously, most pro-transit people also want to disband the police, or so you say. [1] https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/the-left-has-never-stood-for-literally https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/the-left-has-never-stoo... [2] https://www.strongtowns.org/about https://www.strongtowns.org/about
  - decafninja 3y ago
    I'm the opposite way - I ride NYC subways almost daily, and other than the ability for crazies to push people into the tracks, the infrastructure doesn't feel unsafe. Granted, they are at least looking into installing barriers. Cleanliness is another story, but that too, is a matter of culture. I've obviously never been murdered, nor have I been assaulted on the subway. However I very frequently do encounter people raging in a threatening manner, or otherwise behaving unpleasantly. Are they a real threat? Odds are they aren't unless provoked. Do people perceive them to be a threat? Yes, and valid or not. You're again falling victim to asking for perfect but impractical solutions. Why can't we (as in, society) fix the issues with American transit in practical, incremental steps that will genuinely improve transit? As opposed to demanding we fix all societal ills - which while genuine, is going to prevent us from ever getting around to fixing transit? As I recall someone saying in another HN thread long ago, the NYC MTA should be running trains, not running a homeless shelter/mental asylum.

decafninja 3y ago

For example - ensuring there aren't crazy drug addicted homeless persons raging about murdering everyone on the train. When issues like that are brought up, common responses from the pro-transit crowd include: "The psycho is completely harmless, just let him be. He has every right to be on the subway too." "Cars kill people!. The psycho will never hurt anyone!" "We have to pass Medicare-for-all and pass unconditional housing-first policies first. Until then, we can't/shouldn't do anything to the psycho!" To be fair: I am sympathetic with some of the above. However such statements will not help you sell improving/expanding public transit to the American public. And I know not every pro-transit person is like this. But there seems to be a sizable overlap. Also, anecdotal, but since the pro-bike and pro-transit crowd also do overlap - I've noticed a lot of people take up commuting or just traveling by bicycle in NYC the past few years. But the most common reason I hear is to specifically avoid taking the subway as much as possible due to dangers.

TheDong 3y ago
It seems like such a bizarre jump to say "if we build trains, simply riding the train will drive people to drugs and mass murder, causing a new problem outweighing the benefits of the train". If the train is not what is driving people to these heinous conditions, then it seems like this imagined problem is some unrelated thing. Should we not build any shopping malls or parks or roads until we can somehow be certain there won't be a "crazy drug addicted mass-murderer" who goes there? Should we halt the plan to build apartments on the chance a purple dragon might take up residence and burn the town down? For whatever it's worth, I've personally ridden busses in the US for years, taken subways and trains in no less than half a dozen US cities, and I've been murdered zero times so far. I don't see any reasonable path to "building more trains" leading to my odds of getting murdered going up.
- decafninja 3y ago
  You're reading it wrong. Of course riding the train won't drive people to drugs or mass murder. Rather, drugs and the perceived threat of violent crime, as well as general unpleasantness, is what turns off people from embracing public transit. Build a brand new shiny transit system in the USA, and you'll still face the same problems without changing the culture or enforcement. Both will face massive public backslash - again, from many of the same people who are most pro-transit. You're falling victim to the same mentality I mentioned earlier of handwaving away the perceived concerns people have. I ride transit nearly ever day. Obviously I haven't been murdered or fallen victim to violence. But I commonly encounter individuals who I make sure I keep away from either because of threatening behavior or simple unpleasantness.
  - danny_codes 3y ago
    > without changing the culture or enforcement Fortunately, it is within our power to both change the culture and enforce it. Thought TBF the underlying reason is that America has a relatively abysmal safety net (healthcare being the most terrible of the lot), so you just have more people falling through the cracks onto the street.
dontlaugh 3y ago
If the US has such an extreme problem with all public spaces, shouldn't that be addressed? No one else has that problem.
kdmccormick 3y ago
Yes, the progressive Left does have a problem where we can't seem to agree on how to make sure people feel safe and comfortable in the public spaces which we care so deeply about. Socialist blogger Freddie deBoer has several pieces along these lines [1]. As he points out, the people who shout the loudest on Twitter aren't necessarily the same people out there actually leading pro-transit and anti-car movements. FWIW, one of the most prominent anti-car-culture leaders, Chuck Maron of Strong Towns [2], is a self-declared conservative. So, you're cherry-picking the most extreme leftists to paint an exremely strawmanned version of the US pro-transit movement. You sound like you've either had some awful public transit experiences or perhaps watched a lot of scary news involving addicts on transit. At least here in Boston, where I've ridden transit regularly for a decade, I feel safe around other riders. The things that make me feel UNSAFE on transit is the state of the physical infrastructure, which is not the result of lefty anti-police rhetoric but is the result of transit underfunding, cost disease with US public works projects, and historically poor management culture at the MBTA. These are hard problems but they are abstolutely all fixable. The new general manager is already showing that management culture can be improved. Lastly, drug problems and povert in US cities can be clearly linked to the communities which were most devastated by highway expansion and transit defunding. There's a reason that the neighborhoods immediately adjacent to highways look hellish and depressing. So, it seems that you've declared that this problem which is at least in part caused by car culture cannot possibly be fixed by walking back car culture, because, obviously, most pro-transit people also want to disband the police, or so you say. [1] https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/the-left-has-never-stood-for-literally https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/the-left-has-never-stoo... [2] https://www.strongtowns.org/about https://www.strongtowns.org/about
- decafninja 3y ago
  I'm the opposite way - I ride NYC subways almost daily, and other than the ability for crazies to push people into the tracks, the infrastructure doesn't feel unsafe. Granted, they are at least looking into installing barriers. Cleanliness is another story, but that too, is a matter of culture. I've obviously never been murdered, nor have I been assaulted on the subway. However I very frequently do encounter people raging in a threatening manner, or otherwise behaving unpleasantly. Are they a real threat? Odds are they aren't unless provoked. Do people perceive them to be a threat? Yes, and valid or not. You're again falling victim to asking for perfect but impractical solutions. Why can't we (as in, society) fix the issues with American transit in practical, incremental steps that will genuinely improve transit? As opposed to demanding we fix all societal ills - which while genuine, is going to prevent us from ever getting around to fixing transit? As I recall someone saying in another HN thread long ago, the NYC MTA should be running trains, not running a homeless shelter/mental asylum.