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What I find interesting is that this "press release" reads like a response to an exposé of a toxic internal company culture. But as far as I can tell, this was

What I find interesting is that this "press release" reads like a response to an exposé of a toxic internal company culture. But as far as I can tell, this was just a technology failure. It's not very clear to me why they need to "examine their processes" and "take a hard look inwards at how they do work" in order to rectify what was basically a software bug.

Shawnj2 3y ago
If it’s critical enough of a bug that they had to suspend testing immediately then they probably shouldn’t have been doing the testing in the first place That too
- bombcar 3y ago
  The process failure was Cruise didn't suspend testing immediately; they waited until they got yelled at.
jdlshore 3y ago
Two things that make this a potential culture issue, as I see it: 1. Software that operates heavy machinery is life-critical. There’s no such thing as “just a bug” in that environment. It requires a different level of care. 2. As I understand it, Cruise was shut down in San Francisco not because of the software error, but because the company didn’t disclose the full details of what happened with the pedestrian that was hit. That’s very much a cultural problem.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aryamaan 3y ago
what bugs are we talking about?
- Thorrez 3y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/california-suspends-gm-cruises-driverless-autonomous-vehicle-permits-2023-10-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/califo...
roseway4 3y ago
It is alleged that Cruise neglected to provide the DMV with information regarding an incident that led to a pedestrian being badly injured. Other reports claim they willfully withheld information. It appears to be more than a “software bug.”
- jgalt212 3y ago
  It's not the crime (software bug), it's the cover up.
  - bumby 3y ago
    I would argue “it depends”. There are certain professions that operate with public trust. Doctor, lawyer, and engineer are the classical examples. Sometimes those of us in tech get lulled into complacency because we operate under an industrial exemption (ie, don’t require an engineering license) or we work on non-critical systems where we’re encouraged to move fast and break things. We shouldn’t let that attitude spill into safety-critical applications. If you have a duty to the public to provide a safe product in an ethical manner, the software bug can certainly be the issue.
ajross 3y ago
Actually I'm having a hard time even seeing it as that much of a bug. As I understand the accident, the woman trapped wasn't visible from anywhere in the vehicle or its sensors. Any human driver would likely have done the same thing (pull over after a collision when your vehicle is still drivable). It's a terrible situation for the victim, but it's not something reasonably preventable by safety technology of any kind. But regardless, that's not what Cruise is on the hook for. They got in trouble because they tried to hide the full truth from regulators. And that for sure is a toxic internal company culture problem.
- antli35 3y ago
  If a pedestrian gets flung in front of your car and then you no longer see them, wouldn't you be inclined to check whether they might have gone under your car? Especially if you're hearing screaming...
  - ajross 3y ago
    Driver behavior after collisions isn't remotely that rational. People do all kind of crazy things in extremis (secondary collisions caused by post-collision drivers mistakenly hitting the accelerator instead of brake are a whole category of accident!). And in any case (again, as I understand the accident) this was stopped traffic and the Cruise vehicle was hit by another vehicle. In that kind of situation I think a human driver would be hard pressed to know a pedestrian was nearby at all.
    - antli35 3y ago
      From Cruise's statements and news reports, it does not sound like the Cruise car was hit by another vehicle. A nearby vehicle flung a pedestrian in front of a Cruise. The Cruise car stopped on top of the pedestrian, then dragged them as it pulled over. Even accounting for post-crash panic, I find it unlikely that a decent human driver wouldn't have realized that the pedestrian ended up underneath their car. https://getcruise.com/news/blog/2023/a-detailed-review-of-the-recent-sf-hit-and-run-incident/ https://getcruise.com/news/blog/2023/a-detailed-review-of-th...
paul7986 3y ago
There was a definite bro culture reminiscent of Uber's and we all see all the horrible actions Uber did to try to win / kill it. Unfortunately killing an innocent pedesterian in the process of trying to win / kill it. Cruise's responses to their many negative events read like Uber's and I expressed my distaste for Cruise numerous times on here because of their bro trying to kill it attitudes (if you're not for robot cars you're out of touch being one example). I'm not surprised and maybe sharper and more adult heads in GM stopped the program in time saving another poor innocent pedestrian from being mangled by training wheel robot car technology. I.e. The cars all came to a screeching halt when the 5G network it used was clogged up due a concert nearby (wow). It relied on a public 5G network? Maybe one day robot cars it will be safer then a humans if so it will take decades to more yet is that progress worth these algorithms learning at the expense of more innocent lives?

Shawnj2 3y ago

If it’s critical enough of a bug that they had to suspend testing immediately then they probably shouldn’t have been doing the testing in the first place That too

bombcar 3y ago
The process failure was Cruise didn't suspend testing immediately; they waited until they got yelled at.

jdlshore 3y ago

Two things that make this a potential culture issue, as I see it: 1. Software that operates heavy machinery is life-critical. There’s no such thing as “just a bug” in that environment. It requires a different level of care. 2. As I understand it, Cruise was shut down in San Francisco not because of the software error, but because the company didn’t disclose the full details of what happened with the pedestrian that was hit. That’s very much a cultural problem.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

aryamaan 3y ago

what bugs are we talking about?

Thorrez 3y ago
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/california-suspends-gm-cruises-driverless-autonomous-vehicle-permits-2023-10-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/califo...

roseway4 3y ago

It is alleged that Cruise neglected to provide the DMV with information regarding an incident that led to a pedestrian being badly injured. Other reports claim they willfully withheld information. It appears to be more than a “software bug.”

jgalt212 3y ago
It's not the crime (software bug), it's the cover up.
- bumby 3y ago
  I would argue “it depends”. There are certain professions that operate with public trust. Doctor, lawyer, and engineer are the classical examples. Sometimes those of us in tech get lulled into complacency because we operate under an industrial exemption (ie, don’t require an engineering license) or we work on non-critical systems where we’re encouraged to move fast and break things. We shouldn’t let that attitude spill into safety-critical applications. If you have a duty to the public to provide a safe product in an ethical manner, the software bug can certainly be the issue.

ajross 3y ago

Actually I'm having a hard time even seeing it as that much of a bug. As I understand the accident, the woman trapped wasn't visible from anywhere in the vehicle or its sensors. Any human driver would likely have done the same thing (pull over after a collision when your vehicle is still drivable). It's a terrible situation for the victim, but it's not something reasonably preventable by safety technology of any kind. But regardless, that's not what Cruise is on the hook for. They got in trouble because they tried to hide the full truth from regulators. And that for sure is a toxic internal company culture problem.

antli35 3y ago
If a pedestrian gets flung in front of your car and then you no longer see them, wouldn't you be inclined to check whether they might have gone under your car? Especially if you're hearing screaming...
- ajross 3y ago
  Driver behavior after collisions isn't remotely that rational. People do all kind of crazy things in extremis (secondary collisions caused by post-collision drivers mistakenly hitting the accelerator instead of brake are a whole category of accident!). And in any case (again, as I understand the accident) this was stopped traffic and the Cruise vehicle was hit by another vehicle. In that kind of situation I think a human driver would be hard pressed to know a pedestrian was nearby at all.
  - antli35 3y ago
    From Cruise's statements and news reports, it does not sound like the Cruise car was hit by another vehicle. A nearby vehicle flung a pedestrian in front of a Cruise. The Cruise car stopped on top of the pedestrian, then dragged them as it pulled over. Even accounting for post-crash panic, I find it unlikely that a decent human driver wouldn't have realized that the pedestrian ended up underneath their car. https://getcruise.com/news/blog/2023/a-detailed-review-of-the-recent-sf-hit-and-run-incident/ https://getcruise.com/news/blog/2023/a-detailed-review-of-th...

paul7986 3y ago

There was a definite bro culture reminiscent of Uber's and we all see all the horrible actions Uber did to try to win / kill it. Unfortunately killing an innocent pedesterian in the process of trying to win / kill it. Cruise's responses to their many negative events read like Uber's and I expressed my distaste for Cruise numerous times on here because of their bro trying to kill it attitudes (if you're not for robot cars you're out of touch being one example). I'm not surprised and maybe sharper and more adult heads in GM stopped the program in time saving another poor innocent pedestrian from being mangled by training wheel robot car technology. I.e. The cars all came to a screeching halt when the 5G network it used was clogged up due a concert nearby (wow). It relied on a public 5G network? Maybe one day robot cars it will be safer then a humans if so it will take decades to more yet is that progress worth these algorithms learning at the expense of more innocent lives?