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Auto Execs Are Coming Clean: EVs Aren't Working
- maztaim 3y agoI can’t afford any of them. I miss sub $20,000 cars that were quality no matter the drive system.
- floxy 3y agoChevy Bolt "starts at" $26,500, which puts it under $20k with the $7,500 tax credit. https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev
- teraflop 3y agoYes, but unfortunately it's been discontinued. There will eventually be a "new" Bolt to replace it, but it will be built on a completely different platform, and there's no word on whether it will hit the same price point.
- rickyc091 3y agoThey were originally going to discontinue the Bolt and create a new line, but they decided to keep the line. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/why-gm-is-reviving-the-bolt-the-best-selling-ev-it-almost-discontinued/ar-AA1iLOot https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/why-gm-is-reviving...
- floxy 3y agoMy local dealer still has at least one 2023 Bolt on the lot. And I see there are a few used car lots in my area with low-milage Bolts available as well for under the $20k price tag.
- thegrim33 3y agoDoesn't a tax credit just mean you don't have to pay tax on that amount? If you're at, say, a ~20% tax bracket, then it discounts the price by $7,500 * .20, or $1,500 total, bringing the price for a Chevy Bolt to $25,000. Of course there's then taxes and nonsense fees added on top, and the figure you quoted is the base model with no options, so realistically, even after the tax credit, you're looking at above $30,000 for it.
- Rebelgecko 3y agoNo, that's how tax deductions work. With a credit you just get the amount (there's still some nuances based off tax liability, but the updated law for those is going into effect soon)
- thrill 3y agoNo, the $7500 means if you would have owed that much in federal taxes then that much is taken off the amount you would have owed.
- floxy 3y agoNo, it is a straight tax rebate. If you paid over $7,500 in US Federal taxes, then you get to deduct $7,500 off the taxes owed (not your income). But you don't get to carry forward any if say you only paid $6,000 in taxes (but your tax bill for that year would be $0). Also, my state currently has a much reduced sales tax rate for electric vehicles. Source: I did this when I bought an EV.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoCitroën just announced a ~$20,000 electric car, the ë-C3. https://www.media.stellantis.com/em-en/citroen/press/citroen-reveals-the-all-new-e-c3-the-first-european-affordable-electric-car https://www.media.stellantis.com/em-en/citroen/press/citroen... Highly unlikely to come to the US, of course.
- _whiteCaps_ 3y agoI can tell you why sales tanked: https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/chevrolet-bolt-discontinued/ https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/chevrolet-bolt-discontinu... "Automakers have been ditching small, affordable, low-profit vehicles for larger, pricier and higher-profit ones (gas-powered and electric) for years, but the process has greatly accelerated since 2018. In March of that year, cars costing less than $25,000 made up 24% of the car market, but they make up just 4% today, according to data from Edmunds.com." We've got a Bolt EUV and it's a fantastic car. Bought it because it had some of the best legroom for our rather tall children. We don't need or want some monster SUV.
- incomplete 3y agoVW did the same w/the golf/egolf. i have one, love it, but starting in 2020 the only replacement you could get for it was the ID.4. which is huge. and exactly what i don't want or need. le sigh. BRING BACK SMALLER CARS!!!
- maximus-decimus 3y agoIt's really weird how they just gave up on making low cost cars.
- floxy 3y agoIs this still a knock on effect from pandemic supply chain issues? If you only had a limited supply of integrated circuits, it probably made more sense to build the more expensive cars?
- maximus-decimus 3y agoProbably doesn't help, but they started killing small cheap cars in North America even before COVID. Examples are the Toyota Yaris (which was a rebadged Mazda 2) and the Honda Fit.
- acdha 3y agoThat’s what I read in a comment here: they tried to jerk their suppliers around and lost. If you can only get so many chips it makes a lot of sense to put them in the SUVs and trucks with 40% profit margins rather than cars with half the margin on a lower base price. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931498 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26931498
- alexfromapex 3y agoI know there's tons of naysayers, probably because it's provocative, but I really truly believe hydrogen is the successful way forward. It's clean. It can be made with electricity. The model of storing lots of fuel in the vehicle is the part that doesn't seem right to me since it's highly flammable. There will eventually be a way to make solar panels more efficient or make electricity from braking which might make it more economical.
- specialist 3y agoYes. In 15-20 years. The most immediate need (utility) for green hydrogen is replacing fossil fuels in the production of methane and ammonia. This must be done asap. Once that hydrogen production and transport infra is in place, it'll be relatively easier to pivot to using H2 as a fuel. In other words, electric batteries are a bridge (stop gap) tech on the road to our glorious hydrogen economy.
- smileysteve 3y agoStoring hydrogen isn't hard because its explosive, it's less volatile than gasoline. Storing hydrogen is hard because it's low density until it approaches absolute zero and is smaller than and embrittles the best materials we have to store it. If batteries are a worry for replacement, imagine leaking embrittled pressure tanks that have to be checked every year and replaced sooner than every 5.
- BenjiWiebe 3y agoHow do you figure it's less volatile than gasoline?! Hydrogen has a far lower boiling point (=volatility). Or did you mean how explosive it is? Hydrogen has a far wider range of explosive concentration than gasoline. Autoignition point is lower for gasoline than hydrogen if you meant that, but the wide range of explosive concentrations for hydrogen seems like it would pretty much negate that safety benefit.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago4 car pile up. it's foggy and wet and no one can see jack. 40kph cars slam into each other. gas leaks out, maybe eventually starts a fire. meanwhile the hydrogen batteries, some already fragile, just explode. on the plus side the blasts and fire make the pile up a lot more visible.
- keep_reading 3y agoIt's a nice scapegoat for "the economy doesn't make it possible for most people to afford to buy a new car no matter what it is".
- gruez 3y agoWhat does that have to do with EVs "not working"? Can't you just get an ICE car?
- jrflowers 3y agoThis is a good question. “a new car no matter what it is” is very vague and it is unclear if “no matter what it is” includes ICE cars.
- red-iron-pine 3y agonah. even used gas cars are pretty expensive.
- firecall 3y agoAt a guess, I’d say the wider macro economic environment is impacting EV Sales, and all auto sales in general. The Chinese auto makers, like BYD and MG, are also giving the US and Europeans are hard time. A leading indicator is surely the wealthier suburbs where EVs seem to be every where. Anyone that doesn’t have an EV is just holding onto their ICE car until the lease expires or it dies and they churn to an EV.
- mcntsh 3y agoI can only speak for myself and my immediate circle, electric cars seem like a hassle because you have to plan more to charge them. I can't just go on a spontaneous trip and know that almost any point if I need to fill up I can do so, quickly.
- peterashford 3y agoso get a hybrid
- mcntsh 3y agoThis article is about EVs
- GeertB 3y agoActually, that's mostly false. If you can charge at home, you'll have a fully charged car in your driveway every morning. With the Tesla charging network, you really can charge no matter where you want to go. Typically after 4 hours or so of driving, I'm ready to take a bathroom break, stretch my legs and get a coffee. By the time I'm back the car is charged to 80% or so, good to go for another 250 miles or so.
- maxerickson 3y agoThere's a difference between it being doable and it not being a hassle. In even slightly rural areas you have to plan to stop at a small number of locations rather than just stopping whenever gas/food/break makes sense.
- Yizahi 3y agoThat's a very big IF. Over here in EU many (most?) people live in the apartment buildings of different types, and there are no charging spots on the parkings. Having to rely only on the EV stations is deal breaker when comparing with the similarly priced ICE. I can't see myself buying EV while renting an apartment. PS: I do want to buy an EV. I'm not one of those ICE-only people.
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- sexy_seedbox 3y agoAuto Execs Are Coming Clean: EVs Aren't Working in US EVs sell like hotcakes in China and Hong Kong.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoWith enough subsidies you can sell Ferarris like hotcakes to common folk.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoNo you can't. Ferraris are impractical, expensive to fuel, expensive to repair, expensive to maintain, unreliable, can't be used on poor roads, hard to get into, have no luggage space, only hold two people, et cetera. Their main appeal is that they signal status. And if they were cheap, they don't do that.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoNobody is preventing you from subsidizing those amenities as well.
- ben_w 3y agoOf the ten points they raised, only three can be solved with subsidies, while one other is actively made worse by them. Those three were indeed odd choices for a response to your claim, but still, the other seven stand.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoEvery single point can be solved by subsidies. expensive to fuel - Money problem -> Subsidies, expensive to repair - Money problem -> Subsidies, expensive to maintain - Money problem -> Subsidies unreliable - So you need more than one. Money problem -> Subsidies can't be used on poor roads. https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/ferrari-purosangue https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/auto/ferrari-purosangue hard to get into - See link above. Not at all. have no luggage space. You can overnight your stuff. Money problem -> Subsidies only hold two people - So you need more than one Money problem -> Subsidies
- smileysteve 3y agoThat's odd because Tesla had a very successful last 5 years. Maybe the market for cars with limited charging networks is the real problem?
- amluto 3y agoNon-Tesla EVs aren’t working due to a lack of compelling options, IMO. I think there should be decent demand for: A reasonably priced EV sedan. An EV family car — 7 seats, not too large. A minivan or a wagon would work. A small utility vehicle. Telo is on to something IMO. Finally, there’s a huge elephant in the room: NACS. J1772 lost. It’s the living dead. Selling a new EV right now with only a J1772 (or J1772+CCS) jack is like selling a very expensive phone with only a 3G radio a couple years ago. No one who is paying attention would want to own it and be stuck with it. If I were running the show at any of these companies, I would switch production to NACS ASAP. I don’t care if it would take a loss, or if a major change is awkward in the middle of a model year. Throw in an adapter so the cars can charge from J1772 as well (Tesla makes these). Heck, have both jacks. But I think that essentially every single J1772 car that rolls off the production line right now is a mistake, and every would-be customer who reads some FAQ about how there will probably be an adapter available to charge today’s brand-new car from NACS in “Spring 2024” would quite reasonably say no.
- jitl 3y agoYeah, I totally agree. I’ve been looking at electric cars and a bunch look kinda good but none are “tesla without the tesla bullshit”. The NACS plug announcement means I’m very happy to wait since it’ll make future cars one iota more Tesla by default. Plus it’s just so much better than the old standard.
- richij 3y agoAccelerating the switch to NACS on the car side won't work. The unspoken part of "automakers standardize on NACS" is the update to the Superchargers themselves. The signaling is basically CCS, not the legacy Tesla protocol.
- amluto 3y agoGreat. Then ship cars with CCS and a (not quite ready for supercharging) NACS port. A programmable PHY that’s adequate to speak the protocol should not be especially complicated, especially if it’s essentially the same thing as the CCS part. We’re talking about maybe $50 for the jack, a few dollars for muxes, and some relays. Sure, this would add maybe $100-$200 in BOM cost during the transition period. But I think that’s better than failing to produce credible cars at all. And then the cars could be sold as “already compatible with Tesla level 2 chargers and ready for Tesla-compatible supercharging with an OTA upgrade”, which is a lot better than “not compatible, and we’ll probably have an adapter available next year for an unknown price.” (The adapter will surely cost more than the added parts for an extra jack. An external adapter would need to make all the protocols work and may also need a relay to switch between AC and DC modes.)
- jackvalentine 3y agoEvery time my salary packaging provider calls to ‘let me know’ about how they can package an EV I tell them the only EV i’m interested in packaging is a fancy expensive cargo bike. Guess the margins for them aren’t enough when you have to try really hard to spend more than $12k
- etrautmann 3y agoWhat is a salary packaging provider and why are they offering you cars? Is this normal?
- belltaco 3y agoAppears to be an Aussie thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_packaging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_packaging
- jackvalentine 3y agoExtremely normal in Australia. Depending on your sector you can also package restaurant meals, rent/mortgage, laptops - all sorts of stuff. This means you pay for them from your pre-tax income. There are a bunch of limits and a fringe benefits tax year that ends in March that you have to deal with as part of it though.
- jredwards 3y agoUh. Wasn't the Tesla Model Y the best selling car in America last year? What part of that isn't working? I can't walk down the street without spotting six of 'em.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> Wasn't the Tesla Model Y the best selling car in America last year? No, if you exclude pickups but include SUVs (have to do the latter for the Model Y to even qualify), the Toyota RAV4 was; other cars ahead of the model Y included the Toyota Camry and Honda CR-V.
- gergi137 3y agohttps://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23738581/tesla-model-y-ev-record-world-bestselling-car-electric https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/26/23738581/tesla-model-y-ev... True, last year it wasn’t but this year it was the best selling vehicle of any type, EV or not, including trucks.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> True, last year it wasn’t but this year it was This year isn't over. The story is about Q1, not the year.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoModel Y sales were higher Q2 & Q3 than Q1. So while it is theoretically possible that it won't be the bestselling car in 2023, it's highly unlikely.
- bryanlarsen 3y agoVery different story coming out of Volvo today. They're selling lots of EV's, making solid profit on each one and announced new models. https://electrek.co/2023/10/26/volvo-expects-ev-momentum-continue-with-3-new-models/ https://electrek.co/2023/10/26/volvo-expects-ev-momentum-con...
- johnea 3y agoWhat!? Nobody wants to buy a $50,000 "mid-proced" car? People just don't appreciate how much money the wealthy need!