4 ms·

Which law scholars? I actually have a close friend who is a judge. And what you described is not heard of in his career. > And this is just what is written in

Which law scholars? I actually have a close friend who is a judge. And what you described is not heard of in his career. > And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time. It is very hard to have a good-faithed discussion if you assert generalisation like this. Do you have any statistics? Any real cases you've personally encountered? I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. At least in my region, what so true. That's just my 2 cents.

T-A 3y ago
A random sample by quick googling, date-sorted for your convenience: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-is-being-tracked-and-harassed-in-australia-by-chinese-police/y34x0r7w6 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-i... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china-cracks-down-on-students-who-speak-out https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-china-detained-and-harassed-as-beijing-prepares-for-party-congress https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-... https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-dissidents-in-53-countries-with-its-overseas-police-stations-583846 https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-di... https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-members-of-dissidents/102047 https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-membe... https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detained-in-thailand-accused-of-bomb-threats-/7200022.html https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detaine... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-global-transnational-repression-campaign https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-globa... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-georgetown-09282023111042.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-... https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-return-of-dissident-back-to-china-while-activists-critical-of-mining-projects-face-harassment/ https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-ret...
- dumb1224 3y ago
  Thanks for searching on the internet for links to news stories. I should clarify that I was simply trying to add my personal experience into the discussion. I'm not denying there are published in main stream media. But can you personally verify all these reports? I don't think so. Will anyone research in chinese resources? I highly doubt too. So it's a different type of discussion. I'm sure some of the events are true but what are the incident rate / false positive or negatives. In my region I think the probability is extremely low. Other regions of China? I can't quantify.
  - T-A 3y ago
    > But can you personally verify all these reports? Can you personally verify all reports about anything? > Will anyone research in chinese resources? What "chinese resources"? We are talking about unlawful behavior by the Chinese authorities. They are obviously not providing any records about it, and China has no free press to investigate it. > I'm sure some of the events are true but what are the incident rate / false positive or negatives. Just a minute of googling for publicly reported cases surfaces tens of them in recent years. Given the obvious risks of retaliation which come with public disclosure, it would be very surprising if these cases were not just the tip of the iceberg. The rest of that iceberg would be your "negatives". The complete opaqueness of China's judicial system makes it impossible to quantify them. So what? Does that somehow diminish the relevance large number of cases which we do know about? By "false positive", I guess you mean somebody choosing to incur the risks of going public (to themselves and to their relatives back home) just in order to tell a made-up story which will gain them neither money nor fame nor any other advantage. Can you come up with a single plausible reason why anyone would want to do that? > In my region I think the probability is extremely low. Based on what, other than having never been personally subject to it?
    - dumb1224 3y ago
      I don't think a minute of googling will give you a full picture of the situation, beating the citzens living in China. And I am talking about incident rate/ false positive rate in the published pieces in the English / European press. I wonder if supposedly no reliable source from china then how does one reliably assess the authenticity out of China? It is very naive to ignore the obvious bias + conflict of interst(For whatever injust big or small no doubt and the interest of foreign press). When I tried to follow a lot of news pieces like those above the chances are in the end most are lack of evidence, and later when it was debunked in China it won't be covered in UK/US press. So I actually believe that my close friends working in the system can provide much more insight, despite I have never been subject to any of the suspected situation. And it's guaranteed that no journalism will be covering the other side of the coin since there is no interest or financial value. So respectfully I doubt the law in national security can force every citzen to oblige spying duty. It seems wildly exaggerated.
dist-epoch 3y ago
> I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. Yes, you are in a bubble if you rely on Chinese news. These kind of news is illegal to report in China and immediately censored. > Any real cases you've personally encountered What sort of an argument is this? I've never encountered a terrorist or been involved in a terrorist incident. Does this mean terrorists don't exist?

T-A 3y ago

A random sample by quick googling, date-sorted for your convenience: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-is-being-tracked-and-harassed-in-australia-by-chinese-police/y34x0r7w6 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-i... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china-cracks-down-on-students-who-speak-out https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-china-detained-and-harassed-as-beijing-prepares-for-party-congress https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-... https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-dissidents-in-53-countries-with-its-overseas-police-stations-583846 https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-di... https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-members-of-dissidents/102047 https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-membe... https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detained-in-thailand-accused-of-bomb-threats-/7200022.html https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detaine... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-global-transnational-repression-campaign https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-globa... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-georgetown-09282023111042.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-... https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-return-of-dissident-back-to-china-while-activists-critical-of-mining-projects-face-harassment/ https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-ret...

dumb1224 3y ago
Thanks for searching on the internet for links to news stories. I should clarify that I was simply trying to add my personal experience into the discussion. I'm not denying there are published in main stream media. But can you personally verify all these reports? I don't think so. Will anyone research in chinese resources? I highly doubt too. So it's a different type of discussion. I'm sure some of the events are true but what are the incident rate / false positive or negatives. In my region I think the probability is extremely low. Other regions of China? I can't quantify.
- T-A 3y ago
  > But can you personally verify all these reports? Can you personally verify all reports about anything? > Will anyone research in chinese resources? What "chinese resources"? We are talking about unlawful behavior by the Chinese authorities. They are obviously not providing any records about it, and China has no free press to investigate it. > I'm sure some of the events are true but what are the incident rate / false positive or negatives. Just a minute of googling for publicly reported cases surfaces tens of them in recent years. Given the obvious risks of retaliation which come with public disclosure, it would be very surprising if these cases were not just the tip of the iceberg. The rest of that iceberg would be your "negatives". The complete opaqueness of China's judicial system makes it impossible to quantify them. So what? Does that somehow diminish the relevance large number of cases which we do know about? By "false positive", I guess you mean somebody choosing to incur the risks of going public (to themselves and to their relatives back home) just in order to tell a made-up story which will gain them neither money nor fame nor any other advantage. Can you come up with a single plausible reason why anyone would want to do that? > In my region I think the probability is extremely low. Based on what, other than having never been personally subject to it?
  - dumb1224 3y ago
    I don't think a minute of googling will give you a full picture of the situation, beating the citzens living in China. And I am talking about incident rate/ false positive rate in the published pieces in the English / European press. I wonder if supposedly no reliable source from china then how does one reliably assess the authenticity out of China? It is very naive to ignore the obvious bias + conflict of interst(For whatever injust big or small no doubt and the interest of foreign press). When I tried to follow a lot of news pieces like those above the chances are in the end most are lack of evidence, and later when it was debunked in China it won't be covered in UK/US press. So I actually believe that my close friends working in the system can provide much more insight, despite I have never been subject to any of the suspected situation. And it's guaranteed that no journalism will be covering the other side of the coin since there is no interest or financial value. So respectfully I doubt the law in national security can force every citzen to oblige spying duty. It seems wildly exaggerated.

dist-epoch 3y ago

> I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. Yes, you are in a bubble if you rely on Chinese news. These kind of news is illegal to report in China and immediately censored. > Any real cases you've personally encountered What sort of an argument is this? I've never encountered a terrorist or been involved in a terrorist incident. Does this mean terrorists don't exist?