4 ms·

Another side of this is you really want to put economic value on sustainably harvesting these trees and preserving the forest, because if you say "no harvesting

Another side of this is you really want to put economic value on sustainably harvesting these trees and preserving the forest, because if you say "no harvesting at all" then it's more profitable for someone to burn the forest down and replace it with cattle. Years ago tracking lumber from harvesting through the supply chain was one of the few convincing cases I heard for blockchain applications, where you have a sequence of people who don't trust each other and buyers want verification that the group cutting the trees was really only cutting and selling the amount they were allowed to. Haven't heard any more on that recently. EDIT - took a look for updates and I see the FSC has a "FSC Blockchain Beta pilot program" https://fsc.org/en/blockchain https://fsc.org/en/blockchain

whyenot 3y ago
The problem is that in many cases tropical hardwoods are so slow growing and so intertwined with other species (both physically and metaphorically) that there isn't a way to harvest them sustainably. As a planet, we need to decide how much of these forests we are going to save, and then actually protect them. That may sound idealistic, but as someone who has spent a significant portion of my adult life working and studying tropical rainforests, I don't see another good option.
- wlesieutre 3y ago
  Certainly not in the volume for people to be using it for all their decks and flooring. Actual sustainable harvesting would probably price out everything but musical instruments and maybe some expensive outdoor furniture.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Finding better trees to farm might help. It might be easier to get people to choose something other than cutting down old growth forests if the alternative wasn't white pine.
  - Fatnino 3y ago
    The formula seems pretty straightforward. Take the area of land we're willing to give over to lumber farming, divide by how long it takes to grow a tree to harvest and that's how much lumber demand can be met. Adjust price to make demand meet that limit.
    - worik 3y ago
      > Take the area of land we're willing to give over to lumber farming, divide by how long it takes to grow a tree to harvest and that's how much lumber demand can be met. Adjust price to make demand meet that limit. Much more complicated Trees grow in an ecosystem They are not widgets
      - Fatnino 3y ago
        Look at how Christmas trees work. It's exactly this simple.
        otterley 3y ago
        Not every tree species is alike in this regard. You can’t compare plants like that.
    - lozenge 3y ago
      Until a buyer comes along who will pay 5% less for the same wood without the "sustainably farmed" certificate.
    - dhx 3y ago
      It's not quite that easy. Soil under plantations is easy to deplete at a non-renewable rate. Harvest causes soil compaction and erosion. Post-harvest, herbicides are used extensively to kill weeds that would otherwise fill the void before replacement trees are mature enough to keep weeds out. Is the herbicide being used at a renewable rate? etc etc
- worik 3y ago
  > that there isn't a way to harvest them sustainably I did not think that was true. My opinion was that almost any useful tree can be grown in some sort of plantation But talking with foresters I encounter (not many) it seems ecological considerations are along way down the priority list So not that we cannot, but we will not Have you more information?
- demondemidi 3y ago
  The argument of “we must hunt/log it to save it” is a smokescreen deployed as part of a false dichotomy by crass and cynical individuals who wish to profit. Your solution is the right solution: protection policy. Not the invisible hand of the market economics like some bandy about.
narrator 3y ago
It's also a good spot to try out the "free-market ecology"[1] economic system, where all resources extracted from the earth are included in a receipt to the end user of the product. [1] https://botsfordism.substack.com/p/free-market-ecology https://botsfordism.substack.com/p/free-market-ecology
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

whyenot 3y ago

The problem is that in many cases tropical hardwoods are so slow growing and so intertwined with other species (both physically and metaphorically) that there isn't a way to harvest them sustainably. As a planet, we need to decide how much of these forests we are going to save, and then actually protect them. That may sound idealistic, but as someone who has spent a significant portion of my adult life working and studying tropical rainforests, I don't see another good option.

wlesieutre 3y ago
Certainly not in the volume for people to be using it for all their decks and flooring. Actual sustainable harvesting would probably price out everything but musical instruments and maybe some expensive outdoor furniture.
- harimau777 3y ago
  Finding better trees to farm might help. It might be easier to get people to choose something other than cutting down old growth forests if the alternative wasn't white pine.
- Fatnino 3y ago
  The formula seems pretty straightforward. Take the area of land we're willing to give over to lumber farming, divide by how long it takes to grow a tree to harvest and that's how much lumber demand can be met. Adjust price to make demand meet that limit.
  - worik 3y ago
    > Take the area of land we're willing to give over to lumber farming, divide by how long it takes to grow a tree to harvest and that's how much lumber demand can be met. Adjust price to make demand meet that limit. Much more complicated Trees grow in an ecosystem They are not widgets
    - Fatnino 3y ago
      Look at how Christmas trees work. It's exactly this simple.
      - otterley 3y ago
        Not every tree species is alike in this regard. You can’t compare plants like that.
  - lozenge 3y ago
    Until a buyer comes along who will pay 5% less for the same wood without the "sustainably farmed" certificate.
  - dhx 3y ago
    It's not quite that easy. Soil under plantations is easy to deplete at a non-renewable rate. Harvest causes soil compaction and erosion. Post-harvest, herbicides are used extensively to kill weeds that would otherwise fill the void before replacement trees are mature enough to keep weeds out. Is the herbicide being used at a renewable rate? etc etc
worik 3y ago
> that there isn't a way to harvest them sustainably I did not think that was true. My opinion was that almost any useful tree can be grown in some sort of plantation But talking with foresters I encounter (not many) it seems ecological considerations are along way down the priority list So not that we cannot, but we will not Have you more information?
demondemidi 3y ago
The argument of “we must hunt/log it to save it” is a smokescreen deployed as part of a false dichotomy by crass and cynical individuals who wish to profit. Your solution is the right solution: protection policy. Not the invisible hand of the market economics like some bandy about.

narrator 3y ago

It's also a good spot to try out the "free-market ecology"[1] economic system, where all resources extracted from the earth are included in a receipt to the end user of the product. [1] https://botsfordism.substack.com/p/free-market-ecology https://botsfordism.substack.com/p/free-market-ecology

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]