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Yeah. unfortunately the word trolling sometime over the past 15 years started to merge with what was customarily referred to as griefing or flame bait or flamin

Yeah. unfortunately the word trolling sometime over the past 15 years started to merge with what was customarily referred to as griefing or flame bait or flaming itself. The crucial quality that a troll is best executed with as much subtlety as possible so as not to be detected by the intended target (but amusingly obvious to everyone else) was completely lost in the mainstreaming of the word. Now it's used mainly as something like "being a dick online" or even without the online part, as if English (and every other language) didn't have enough slang for this behavior already. I submit that what has happened to the word trolling should be exhibit A in the counter argument against the claim that language evolves over time, or at least challenge the idea that evolves is analogous to "improves" or "becomes better suited to its purpose."

rendall 3y ago
> The crucial quality that a troll is best executed with as much subtlety as possible so as not to be detected by the intended target Yeah.. noo. Who told you this? This is wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Even the gnaa and the penis bird and all that sort of thing, although typically labeled -1, troll by slashdot's moderation system (because that's the best fitting option in the list - the obvious absurdity ruling out using "flamebait" instead), were really not getting at the original (and semantically unique) sense of the term [0] as it existed during the Usenet days when it first appeared. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html "The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it."
  - rendall 3y ago
    I think for me the turning point as an inveterate troll was learning about seriously sociopathic nihilistic groups like Queer [n-word] for Satan who would no-kidding bully and doxx vulnerable people. My attempting to get a rise out of the clueless was nothing compared to that kind of monstrousness.
    - sangnoir 3y ago
      There are no distinct boundaries between griefing, trolling and flamebaiting. I'd argue the groups with intentionally offensive names are griefers by default. Is intentionally triggering a negative reaction in someone for lulz using an off-topic comment and claiming "it's just a joke, bro" trolling, flamebaiting or griefing? Depends who you ask, but I'm glad none of the overt versions of the three are welcome on HN.
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      I think I may have given a late estimate for the turning point of the word troll, because even by the time slashdot came around and usenet had already gone into steep decline, the usage has started to shift away from "trolling-as-in-fishing-technique" craftwork and toward "trolling-as-in-attention-seeking-monster's-petty-sadism." The former requires ever greater refinement to improve upon, while the latter requires merely ever increasing tolerance for banal cruelty, leading to the situation you described.
- tivert 3y ago
  >> The crucial quality that a troll is best executed with as much subtlety as possible so as not to be detected by the intended target > Yeah.. noo. Who told you this? This is wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin. It's literally the classic definition of an internet troll. The whole point was to subtly push other people's buttons to get them to do something interesting. See this semi-famous example: https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2001-12-02-treginaldgibbons-isyoursonacomputerhacker.html https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2001-12-02-treginaldgibbons-isyours.... It can and did trigger a lot of geeks' impulse to pedantically correct others, be opinionated (e.g. AOL hate), and defend their hobbies against what they perceived as cultural hostility.
  - rendall 3y ago
    > It's literally the classic definition of an internet troll. Yeah, nah. Maybe for boomers? Are you "silent generation"?
    - tivert 3y ago
      > Yeah, nah. Maybe for boomers? Are you "silent generation"? Nice troll.
      - ChainOfFools 3y ago
        "uhm, akshally... that is flamebait. HAND" -B1FF
    - gilmore606 3y ago
      gr8 b8 m8 :)
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Nicely done, I completely fell for it.
- kbelder 3y ago
  You got me.
gopher_space 3y ago
The concept of 'troll' moved from "like a fisherman" to "like under a bridge".

rendall 3y ago

> The crucial quality that a troll is best executed with as much subtlety as possible so as not to be detected by the intended target Yeah.. noo. Who told you this? This is wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ChainOfFools 3y ago
Even the gnaa and the penis bird and all that sort of thing, although typically labeled -1, troll by slashdot's moderation system (because that's the best fitting option in the list - the obvious absurdity ruling out using "flamebait" instead), were really not getting at the original (and semantically unique) sense of the term [0] as it existed during the Usenet days when it first appeared. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html "The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it."
- rendall 3y ago
  I think for me the turning point as an inveterate troll was learning about seriously sociopathic nihilistic groups like Queer [n-word] for Satan who would no-kidding bully and doxx vulnerable people. My attempting to get a rise out of the clueless was nothing compared to that kind of monstrousness.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    There are no distinct boundaries between griefing, trolling and flamebaiting. I'd argue the groups with intentionally offensive names are griefers by default. Is intentionally triggering a negative reaction in someone for lulz using an off-topic comment and claiming "it's just a joke, bro" trolling, flamebaiting or griefing? Depends who you ask, but I'm glad none of the overt versions of the three are welcome on HN.
  - ChainOfFools 3y ago
    I think I may have given a late estimate for the turning point of the word troll, because even by the time slashdot came around and usenet had already gone into steep decline, the usage has started to shift away from "trolling-as-in-fishing-technique" craftwork and toward "trolling-as-in-attention-seeking-monster's-petty-sadism." The former requires ever greater refinement to improve upon, while the latter requires merely ever increasing tolerance for banal cruelty, leading to the situation you described.
tivert 3y ago
>> The crucial quality that a troll is best executed with as much subtlety as possible so as not to be detected by the intended target > Yeah.. noo. Who told you this? This is wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin. It's literally the classic definition of an internet troll. The whole point was to subtly push other people's buttons to get them to do something interesting. See this semi-famous example: https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2001-12-02-treginaldgibbons-isyoursonacomputerhacker.html https://gwern.net/doc/cs/2001-12-02-treginaldgibbons-isyours.... It can and did trigger a lot of geeks' impulse to pedantically correct others, be opinionated (e.g. AOL hate), and defend their hobbies against what they perceived as cultural hostility.
- rendall 3y ago
  > It's literally the classic definition of an internet troll. Yeah, nah. Maybe for boomers? Are you "silent generation"?
  - tivert 3y ago
    > Yeah, nah. Maybe for boomers? Are you "silent generation"? Nice troll.
    - ChainOfFools 3y ago
      "uhm, akshally... that is flamebait. HAND" -B1FF
  - gilmore606 3y ago
    gr8 b8 m8 :)
bloopernova 3y ago
Nicely done, I completely fell for it.
kbelder 3y ago
You got me.

gopher_space 3y ago

The concept of 'troll' moved from "like a fisherman" to "like under a bridge".