4 ms·

I had a difficult time placing these sites (even with the Tigris-Euphrates) in a larger world context (like, "how large is this area?", and "relative to all Rom

by araes 3y ago

I had a difficult time placing these sites (even with the Tigris-Euphrates) in a larger world context (like, "how large is this area?", and "relative to all Roman area"). So, I made a graphic that may be mildly helpful. [1] Based on a quick check, these best I could find was the fort at Circesium (known as the "farthest fortress" (φρούριον ἔσχατον) of the Romans), which apparently existed by 256 AD. [2] However, the Roman Empire was basically over by 256 AD, and was in the process of splitting into West-East (Crisis of the Third Century[3]) and had likely already formed the breakaway Palmyrene Empire [4] ruled over by Zenobia. All locations have therefore been placed on a map of the Palmyrene Empire (circa 271 AD) relative to Palmyra, Jerusalem, Petra, Cyprus, and similar well known locations. Map was made using the last Figure image from [5], the Palmyrene Empire Map from [6] and a Distort to 3-pt Edessa, Nisibis, and Zenobia. [1] https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png (map I made) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circesium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circesium [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmyrene_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmyrene_Empire [5] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/wall-or-a-road-a-remote-sensingbased-investigation-of-fortifications-on-romes-eastern-frontier/8FE59FB0D5476EA329614EEC6DC414FD#figures https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/wa... [6] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Empire_of_Palmyra.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Empire_o...

nextaccountic 3y ago
> [1] https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png (map I made) what means the red thing in this map? it's not in the legend
- araes 3y ago
  For the red dots, see my comment below @hammock The red square region is an image artifact of the overlay process. If you check the paper linked, there's a legend in the original image, which was then copied over to the combined image. I also discuss the image combining process a bit in the same comment.
epups 3y ago
Thank you for these resources! The map in particular is very illustrative, I was having a hard time forming a mental image of the area in question without one.
mmanfrin 3y ago
> However, the Roman Empire was basically over by 256 AD Instability during the crisis of the third century was not the end of the Empire in the slightest; especially considering that the Palmyrene Empire lasted hardly more than a single decade before it was reconquered by the Romans who held on to it for centuries longer.
- araes 3y ago
  The comment is in reference to the generally held height of Ancient Rome being ~100 AD. Afterward, largely 2nd order downward. This Wikipedia gif illustrates. [1] The crisis article and late antiquity articles note: > The crisis resulted in such profound changes in the empire's institutions, society, economic life, and religion that it is increasingly seen by most historians as defining the transition between the historical periods of classical antiquity and late antiquity. > Diocletian (Emp: 284 AD), who began the custom of splitting the Empire into Eastern and Western portions ruled by multiple emperors simultaneously. The Roman Empire was effectively broken, and mostly just oscillated until the final West-East break. It was already "customarily" split in two by 284 AD. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#/media/File:Romempgif.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#/media/File:Romem...
  - crop_rotation 3y ago
    This is just incorrect and the empire had multiple multi dedade solo emperors post Diocletien, including Constantine and Theodosius. > The comment is in reference to the generally held height of Ancient Rome being ~100 AD The height of an empire has no bearing on it's existence. Otherwise one could shorten each empire's existence to it's golden decade.
  - mmanfrin 3y ago
    Of the many end dates people debate as the end of the empire, 284CE is not one of them.
    - sheepshear 3y ago
      I think it's fair to call it the transition from Empire to Tetrarchy. Like how we distinguish between the Roman Kingdom, Republic, and Empire.
hammock 3y ago
> [1] https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png (map I made) What are the red dots?
- araes 3y ago
  The red dots are the locations of either: [square] CORONA Survey forts (circle) Intensive Survey forts Both sets of data were taken by image filtering the lower half of [1] for grey-black colors [(forts)], deleting all remaining imagery, transposing the image onto [2] using Photoshop, and then using Edit->Transform->[Scale,Distort] to image fit to a 3-point fit of Edessa, Nisibis, and Zenobia. [1] https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20231024175359-85106-optimisedImage-S0003598X23001539_fig9.jpg https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge... [2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Empire_of_Palmyra.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Empire_o...

by araes 3y ago

nextaccountic 3y ago

> [1] https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png (map I made) what means the red thing in this map? it's not in the legend

araes 3y ago
For the red dots, see my comment below @hammock The red square region is an image artifact of the overlay process. If you check the paper linked, there's a legend in the original image, which was then copied over to the combined image. I also discuss the image combining process a bit in the same comment.

epups 3y ago

Thank you for these resources! The map in particular is very illustrative, I was having a hard time forming a mental image of the area in question without one.

mmanfrin 3y ago

> However, the Roman Empire was basically over by 256 AD Instability during the crisis of the third century was not the end of the Empire in the slightest; especially considering that the Palmyrene Empire lasted hardly more than a single decade before it was reconquered by the Romans who held on to it for centuries longer.

araes 3y ago
The comment is in reference to the generally held height of Ancient Rome being ~100 AD. Afterward, largely 2nd order downward. This Wikipedia gif illustrates. [1] The crisis article and late antiquity articles note: > The crisis resulted in such profound changes in the empire's institutions, society, economic life, and religion that it is increasingly seen by most historians as defining the transition between the historical periods of classical antiquity and late antiquity. > Diocletian (Emp: 284 AD), who began the custom of splitting the Empire into Eastern and Western portions ruled by multiple emperors simultaneously. The Roman Empire was effectively broken, and mostly just oscillated until the final West-East break. It was already "customarily" split in two by 284 AD. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#/media/File:Romempgif.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire#/media/File:Romem...
- crop_rotation 3y ago
  This is just incorrect and the empire had multiple multi dedade solo emperors post Diocletien, including Constantine and Theodosius. > The comment is in reference to the generally held height of Ancient Rome being ~100 AD The height of an empire has no bearing on it's existence. Otherwise one could shorten each empire's existence to it's golden decade.
- mmanfrin 3y ago
  Of the many end dates people debate as the end of the empire, 284CE is not one of them.
  - sheepshear 3y ago
    I think it's fair to call it the transition from Empire to Tetrarchy. Like how we distinguish between the Roman Kingdom, Republic, and Empire.

hammock 3y ago

> [1] https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png https://i.imgur.com/dMZiloA.png (map I made) What are the red dots?

araes 3y ago
The red dots are the locations of either: [square] CORONA Survey forts (circle) Intensive Survey forts Both sets of data were taken by image filtering the lower half of [1] for grey-black colors [(forts)], deleting all remaining imagery, transposing the image onto [2] using Photoshop, and then using Edit->Transform->[Scale,Distort] to image fit to a 3-point fit of Edessa, Nisibis, and Zenobia. [1] https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20231024175359-85106-optimisedImage-S0003598X23001539_fig9.jpg https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge... [2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Empire_of_Palmyra.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Empire_o...