5 ms·

Black locust is basically as good as ipe--competitive in characteristics like hardness and rot resistance, and I think slighly lower in price. It has been used

Black locust is basically as good as ipe--competitive in characteristics like hardness and rot resistance, and I think slighly lower in price. It has been used for years for fence posts and now a lumber industry for it seems to be maturing. Apparently it grows like a weed and is even considered invasive in some places. I used black locust for a large porch and am very pleased with it.

Loughla 3y ago
I'm not sure about black locust rot resistance. That's pretty heavily informed on when you harvest it. If you harvest in the spring, it won't last five years. It's only good if harvested in the dead of winter when there is no sap. Also, it doesn't grow large, often because it's so susceptible to disease. So there's that, too.
- arp242 3y ago
  Don't harvest in the spring then? Wikipedia says "It is very resistant to rot" and "In the Netherlands some other parts of Europe, black locust is one of the most rot-resistant local trees".
  - Loughla 3y ago
    I mean, that's fine, but only harvesting for a short portion of the year (during hard freeze after sap is out) severely limits the market and therefore increases cost. That has to be part of the issue, right?
    - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
      The bottleneck is growing the wood, not cutting it. Modern forestry equipment is insanely fast. Most agricultural crops have a very short seasonal window in which they can be harvested, but corn is not expensive because we only get one harvest per year, lumber is an anomaly in that respect.
detourdog 3y ago
I use Black Locust despite being illegal here for its invasive species. There is no record of it in the original survey of trees and that is how it got the invasive label. The longer, clearer, and straighter you need tbe wood the worse black locusts becomes.
nemo44x 3y ago
I’ve never heard of Black Locust and I don’t recall it being an option when I built a deck a few years back (perhaps it was though!) but reading about it I wish I had. I ended up just using pressure treated pine (the exotics were 10’s of thousands more) but when it’s time to rebuild I’ll certainly consider Black locust. Apparently it takes stain well too.
- foobarian 3y ago
  My porch is made of that newfangled plastic wood and as much as I hate the idea, I love how long it will last.
  - ljf 3y ago
    We have had that plastic wood down for 5 years and it is perfect. 2 years ago I extended a small bit of decking and used real wood as it isn't that visible and was so much cheaper. Already two years after it looks terrible and I'll be amazed if it lasts 5 years. Sadly plastic wood is brilliant. I can see it outlasting the frame it is built on.
    - nemo44x 3y ago
      You need to seal and stain the wood. Depending on the brand that could mean every year or every 2 or 3 years. The wood will rot otherwise. But maintained then pressure treated pine (or outdoor hardwood) will last a long time. You’ve also pointed out the problem with plastic. It fades and if you were to add new plastic it would look off.
  - digging 3y ago
    Will it? I'm not aware of any plastics that are insanely durable, they just don't rot. But treated wood also doesn't rot. I'd expect a lot of weathering and surface degradation at a similar rate to typical woods.
    - AnotherGoodName 3y ago
      My big concern is UV stabilization. Plastic can be stabilized but how can i be sure the product i buy is actually UV stabilized? I don't want a deck that may turn to powder because the manufacturer skipped a step of the process.
doctorhandshake 3y ago
I did an enormous amount of research when replacing my deck this summer and BL was top of my list. My experience trying to source it here in Eastern PA was, to put it mildly, off-putting, as everyone I spoke to wanted to, unprompted, spend the first 30 minutes of the conversation telling me how shady their competitors were, especially when it came to claims of domestic sourcing. I ended up doing a kind of 180 and installing Accoya wood, which, geographically and species-wise is about the furthest thing from BL available, but felt to me like a good investment in longevity and thus embodied carbon, even when accounting for the long boat trip(s) to my place.
- solomonb 3y ago
  How did you like Accoya? I've been thinking about using it for a few projects.
  - doctorhandshake 3y ago
    It’s absolutely gorgeous and very very expensive. Unlike the other comment I absolutely can tell the difference between synthetic and natural woods and in general while I don’t have a blanket issue with man-made materials, I do have an issue with ersatz anything, almost to the degree of having an allergy. For that reason I was boxed into real woods, and from a sustainability (and toxicity) and performance perspective, I didn’t find a ton of options beyond black locust or thermally modified or acetylated woods. Accoya was everything I wanted except cheap, and it is clearly real wood, which, sadly, seems luxurious today. Just installed it so can’t speak to longevity but encouraged by the 50 year warranty against structural issues caused by fungal decay or rot, or against swell or shrinkage > 2.5%.
    - doctorhandshake 3y ago
      I should also mention that it doesn’t get hot at all, even in very hot summer full-sun conditions. Very nice to walk on barefoot - it feels very soft to the touch.
    - solomonb 3y ago
fanatic2pope 3y ago
Osage Orange is another interesting domestic species that is extremely strong and also resistant to rot. I use it as a contrast wood for projects where I don't mind the colour change from bright orange to black over time. Things like small inlays but especially as pegs for draw bored mortise and tenon joints. A quick online check reveals it is sold in sizes probably useful for building decks.
- hinkley 3y ago
  It is notoriously difficult to dry Osage orange without cracking. If you can get a solid piece it’s extremely durable. Pretty good mechanical properties too. Handles that go for days. The amusing thing about Osage is we lived in a subdivision that contained the old boundary of a farm, so all of our neighbors had a row of “problem” Osage orange on their back property line. 18” or bigger, tall and looming. And now I know people who actually want it.
jprd 3y ago
> keming This clonal tree is a menace, and should definitely be harvested for use. The amount of scars I have from their INSANE thorns when young is getting too much to count.
solomonb 3y ago
Another interesting option is Accoya lumber. It is acetylated softwood performs as well as traditional hardwoods in exterior applications. It looks nice too.
- viewtransform 3y ago
  Had to look up the treatment process - it's pickeled wood! https://www.accoya.com/acetylation-what-is-it-and-what-is-acetylated-wood/ https://www.accoya.com/acetylation-what-is-it-and-what-is-ac...
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I don't know the real practical importance of this, but this [1] Wikipedia page states that the Janka hardness of Black Locust is much less than half that of Ipe. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Loughla 3y ago

I'm not sure about black locust rot resistance. That's pretty heavily informed on when you harvest it. If you harvest in the spring, it won't last five years. It's only good if harvested in the dead of winter when there is no sap. Also, it doesn't grow large, often because it's so susceptible to disease. So there's that, too.

arp242 3y ago
Don't harvest in the spring then? Wikipedia says "It is very resistant to rot" and "In the Netherlands some other parts of Europe, black locust is one of the most rot-resistant local trees".
- Loughla 3y ago
  I mean, that's fine, but only harvesting for a short portion of the year (during hard freeze after sap is out) severely limits the market and therefore increases cost. That has to be part of the issue, right?
  - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
    The bottleneck is growing the wood, not cutting it. Modern forestry equipment is insanely fast. Most agricultural crops have a very short seasonal window in which they can be harvested, but corn is not expensive because we only get one harvest per year, lumber is an anomaly in that respect.

detourdog 3y ago

I use Black Locust despite being illegal here for its invasive species. There is no record of it in the original survey of trees and that is how it got the invasive label. The longer, clearer, and straighter you need tbe wood the worse black locusts becomes.

nemo44x 3y ago

I’ve never heard of Black Locust and I don’t recall it being an option when I built a deck a few years back (perhaps it was though!) but reading about it I wish I had. I ended up just using pressure treated pine (the exotics were 10’s of thousands more) but when it’s time to rebuild I’ll certainly consider Black locust. Apparently it takes stain well too.

foobarian 3y ago
My porch is made of that newfangled plastic wood and as much as I hate the idea, I love how long it will last.
- ljf 3y ago
  We have had that plastic wood down for 5 years and it is perfect. 2 years ago I extended a small bit of decking and used real wood as it isn't that visible and was so much cheaper. Already two years after it looks terrible and I'll be amazed if it lasts 5 years. Sadly plastic wood is brilliant. I can see it outlasting the frame it is built on.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    You need to seal and stain the wood. Depending on the brand that could mean every year or every 2 or 3 years. The wood will rot otherwise. But maintained then pressure treated pine (or outdoor hardwood) will last a long time. You’ve also pointed out the problem with plastic. It fades and if you were to add new plastic it would look off.
- digging 3y ago
  Will it? I'm not aware of any plastics that are insanely durable, they just don't rot. But treated wood also doesn't rot. I'd expect a lot of weathering and surface degradation at a similar rate to typical woods.
  - AnotherGoodName 3y ago
    My big concern is UV stabilization. Plastic can be stabilized but how can i be sure the product i buy is actually UV stabilized? I don't want a deck that may turn to powder because the manufacturer skipped a step of the process.

doctorhandshake 3y ago

I did an enormous amount of research when replacing my deck this summer and BL was top of my list. My experience trying to source it here in Eastern PA was, to put it mildly, off-putting, as everyone I spoke to wanted to, unprompted, spend the first 30 minutes of the conversation telling me how shady their competitors were, especially when it came to claims of domestic sourcing. I ended up doing a kind of 180 and installing Accoya wood, which, geographically and species-wise is about the furthest thing from BL available, but felt to me like a good investment in longevity and thus embodied carbon, even when accounting for the long boat trip(s) to my place.

solomonb 3y ago
How did you like Accoya? I've been thinking about using it for a few projects.
- doctorhandshake 3y ago
  It’s absolutely gorgeous and very very expensive. Unlike the other comment I absolutely can tell the difference between synthetic and natural woods and in general while I don’t have a blanket issue with man-made materials, I do have an issue with ersatz anything, almost to the degree of having an allergy. For that reason I was boxed into real woods, and from a sustainability (and toxicity) and performance perspective, I didn’t find a ton of options beyond black locust or thermally modified or acetylated woods. Accoya was everything I wanted except cheap, and it is clearly real wood, which, sadly, seems luxurious today. Just installed it so can’t speak to longevity but encouraged by the 50 year warranty against structural issues caused by fungal decay or rot, or against swell or shrinkage > 2.5%.
  - doctorhandshake 3y ago
    I should also mention that it doesn’t get hot at all, even in very hot summer full-sun conditions. Very nice to walk on barefoot - it feels very soft to the touch.
  - solomonb 3y ago

fanatic2pope 3y ago

Osage Orange is another interesting domestic species that is extremely strong and also resistant to rot. I use it as a contrast wood for projects where I don't mind the colour change from bright orange to black over time. Things like small inlays but especially as pegs for draw bored mortise and tenon joints. A quick online check reveals it is sold in sizes probably useful for building decks.

hinkley 3y ago
It is notoriously difficult to dry Osage orange without cracking. If you can get a solid piece it’s extremely durable. Pretty good mechanical properties too. Handles that go for days. The amusing thing about Osage is we lived in a subdivision that contained the old boundary of a farm, so all of our neighbors had a row of “problem” Osage orange on their back property line. 18” or bigger, tall and looming. And now I know people who actually want it.

jprd 3y ago

> keming This clonal tree is a menace, and should definitely be harvested for use. The amount of scars I have from their INSANE thorns when young is getting too much to count.

solomonb 3y ago

Another interesting option is Accoya lumber. It is acetylated softwood performs as well as traditional hardwoods in exterior applications. It looks nice too.

viewtransform 3y ago
Had to look up the treatment process - it's pickeled wood! https://www.accoya.com/acetylation-what-is-it-and-what-is-acetylated-wood/ https://www.accoya.com/acetylation-what-is-it-and-what-is-ac...

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

I don't know the real practical importance of this, but this [1] Wikipedia page states that the Janka hardness of Black Locust is much less than half that of Ipe. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test