7 ms·

Apple could afford to reopen the plants they had in Fremont, they just might not be able to produce 100% of their products there. From the NY Times article he r

Apple could afford to reopen the plants they had in Fremont, they just might not be able to produce 100% of their products there. From the NY Times article he refers to: paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. Fender does this--they offer you the choice of a Chinese, Mexican, Japanese, or American made guitar and just price accordingly. I would pay more for an iPhone that I knew was made in America. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Other examples: Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Annie's Homegrown (BNNY).

simonh 15y ago
Disclosure: I'm a Brit, and my wife is Chinese. Frankly I have no time for flag-waving 'Buy American' and for that matter 'Buy British' favouritism. I've seen the poverty in rural China first hand, industrialisation over there has it's rough edges that need to be addressed, but if we care about world poverty then that means cutting all the jingoistic claptrap and 'allowing' them to earn a better living. There are legitimate cases where buying locally makes sense, especially in the case of regional foods or traditionally crafted goods. I'm all for preserving traditional ways of life if it makes sense, but I don't think iPhone assembly line production falls in that category. The US, Britain and the western world in general has grown rich exporting goods and services to the rest of the world and importing cheap commodities and goods. Fair trade benefits both sides of the bargain. It's time to set aside protectionism and recognise it for the pernicious imperialism and borderline racism it really is.
- rbarooah 15y ago
  Don't you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?
  - mseebach 15y ago
    The Mao isolation was just a continuation of centuries of Ming isolation, and, emphatically, yes. I think the GP meant modern protectionism in the sense of "Buy American/British/etc" movements.
    - rbarooah 15y ago
      By talking about how the US and Britain had grown rich through trade and 'imperialist' protectionism and mentioning racism, the GP seemed to be implying that the poverty in China was somehow created by these western countries. Aren't those modern "buy British" or "buy American" movements voluntary? Might there not be good reasons for supporting those who are economically tied to you by culture and legal jurisdiction?
      - mseebach 15y ago
        There is no possible way I can read the GP to mean that. He only mentions imperialism and racism after talking about, and with clear reference to, "Buy American". Most of the movements are voluntary for now, but not all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009#Buy_American_provision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestm... > Might there not be good reasons for supporting those who are economically tied to you by culture and legal jurisdiction? Yes and no. But if the support takes the form of a bail-out, you're just wasting your money while delaying the inevitable and making the eventual crash much more painful. If you instead let industries fizzle out over time, it's much easier for something to appear to take it's place.
        rbarooah 15y ago
        So, do you disagree with the point in the original article about the bail-out of the auto industry preventing a much wider loss?
        rbarooah 15y ago
        Good grief. Downvoted multiple times without explanation? The original top-level article that this thread is about made what seemed to be a reasoned point at the end about the bailout of the auto-industry, and I am simply asking mseebach whether he disagrees with it, since he made reference to bailouts. Why on earth would that get downvoted?
    - mechnik 15y ago
  - olalonde 15y ago
    Straw man.
    - rbarooah 15y ago
      How so?
      - olalonde 15y ago
        Parent didn't argue that American/British protectionism was worse than Mao's isolationism. He simply argued that American/British protectionism was bad for poor people in developing countries. > A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It seems to me that you are misrepresenting your opponent's position.
        rbarooah 15y ago
        Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all. My question adds context that changes the weight of the parent's assertions. What I wrote isn't even an argument, so it can't be a straw man.
        olalonde 15y ago
        By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case: > Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? or even better: > On another note, do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?
        rbarooah 15y ago
        By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. This is where you are wrong. By phrasing it in the negative form I am implicitly asserting that I think that what follows is not my interlocutors opinion. So, no straw man.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- ArtB 15y ago
  How about trying to create the greatest economy for our children? I care about the poor in China... but only after my own are taken care of. For me, family comes first, and then fellow citizens, and then the rest of the world.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
rbarooah 15y ago
I'm guessing you didn't read the piece. Wages are not the primary issue.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
bmelton 15y ago
Speaking Fenders (and Gibsons too, naturally,) there are checks in place to ensure that the US made versions are of the highest quality. My Les Paul was made in Canada. I do not believe that Canadians are unable to produce as high a quality guitar as US Americans, but they are, I believe, not allowed to. The difference in cost between an American Les Paul and its equivalent US model is approximately $250-300. The difference in quality is less. The smart money, among most guitarists, is to buy the non-US version, take it to a decent luthier, and give them $75-100 to bring it up to par which, in my experience, actually leaves you with a better guitar than the Memphis version (excluding the much more expensive customs.) Regardless, many consider the US version to be the best of the bunch, and are generally happy to pay the premium. The major difference of course is in the fit and finish. You have to enforce a quality difference that is, effectively, arbitrary. In Apple's case, that means deliberately reducing a lesser-quality product for the non-US products, which seems contrary to their 'ship perfection' mentality. It might work, it might not, but the key is in distinguishing between the product versions in some way. Perhaps this could be accomplished with a slightly different feature set, or maybe the 'white' iphone could be reserved for US manufacture, I dunno, but I honestly have a hard time imagining that there is a significant population of consumers willing to pay for the "Made in the USA" version, if only because the "Made in the USA" version of other products have not performed up to expectations.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
...paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. The point of the article is to illustrate that wages are not the only problem. Chaotic effects in multi-tier supply chains are also a real problem. I would pay more for an iPhone that I knew was made in America. I'm sure I'm not the only one. You are certainly a minority. I don't think most people value nationalism at $65. Personally, I'd rather have the jobs go to the people who need them most, rather than to people who are superficially "like me". But while assigning a $0 value to nationalism is probably a minority view, I suspect the majority view is far closer to $0 than to $65.
- tosseraccount 15y ago
  Therefore ... you'd happily give up your job to someone who needed more? Just to prove a point.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    I probably wouldn't be happy about it, but yes - if someone can do my job cheaper or better then I should be replaced.
    - OzzyB 15y ago
      I that before or after you gave him the know-how and IP to do so? </snark>
- diogenescynic 15y ago
  You only chose to respond to a portion of what I wrote or didn't read the first sentence so I've italicized it for clarification: they just might not be able to produce 100% of their products there [in Fremont]. Maybe you're not familiar with guitars either, but Fender American made are substantially more expensive but they are in definitely in demand. There is also demand for a cheaper entry level product--both products serve a need. Why do you think it has to be one or the other? What you're talking about sounds like Ayn Rand's objectivism--basing your argument 100% on cost. I think you're wrong about this--Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Red Wing Shoes, and local coop growth shows that people do care where they get their products from when given a choice. Also, please stop making assumptions about me: rather than to people who are superficially "like me". Where did I say this and where do you come off being so vitriolic? Personally I come to HN for an intellectual discussion and don't appreciate your condescending attitude, or mischaracterization of my comments, or lack of intellectual integrity, or your argument by fallacy. You responded to your own strawman argument because it was easier than responding to what I actually said. You argue like a bully--if I disagree with you I am 'nationalistic and superficial'? That seems like an elevated discussion.
ctdonath 15y ago
Did you read the article? The whole point is that you can't just "reopen the plants" because those plants rely on other suppliers in a complex fast-moving supply chain; in China those suppliers are practically next door and have turnaround times measured in hours, while in CA the suppliers are miles, states, or even continents away with turnaround times measured in weeks. One hiccup in supply (say, something's wrong with a screw and it must be redesigned and a new batch produced) means a train wreck of production backup (nothing ships until that modified screw is produced, which is weeks if you're waiting for the next container ship to bring it). He's not talking a mere matter of paying an extra $65 for "Made in USA" markings, he's talking the USA model of iPhone 5 costing ~$200 more and introduction/production being chronically behind the China version for months. "Lesseehere...I can buy this now for $X, or I can wait to buy the exact same thing (save for different markings) 6 weeks from now for $X+20%." Those Fremont factories won't be open long. And somehow methinks Fender's supply chain isn't as fast & complex as Apple's.
- podperson 15y ago
  And even if it weren't, Fender isn't producing new classes of mass market products with unknown demand.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- eitally 15y ago
  This has been a slippery slope for the last 15-20 years, actually. If you look at the history of Acer & Asus, for example, you'll see that they both (Asus was actually started by a few ex-Acer engineers) as component suppliers to larger, western OEMs and contract manufacturers. As they got a foothold there, they expanded their offerings to include more complex manufacturing (motherboards, graphics cards, etc), which they parlayed into a lucrative ODM/JDM business, and then eventually launched their own consumer brands to compete directly with their former customers. It took a decade+ to get from point A-->B, but by the time they finished the transformation it was too late for the slow western behemoths to do anything about it. And that, as they say, is the rest of the story [of how the global supply chain got Asia-heavy, causing eventual movement of manufacturing & logistics to the region, too]. It hasn't just been labor costs -- not at all; it's that unless there are extenuating circumstances (e.g. Brazilian import tariffs) there is almost always more savings to be had via supply chain refinement than via direct labor cost reduction.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

simonh 15y ago

Disclosure: I'm a Brit, and my wife is Chinese. Frankly I have no time for flag-waving 'Buy American' and for that matter 'Buy British' favouritism. I've seen the poverty in rural China first hand, industrialisation over there has it's rough edges that need to be addressed, but if we care about world poverty then that means cutting all the jingoistic claptrap and 'allowing' them to earn a better living. There are legitimate cases where buying locally makes sense, especially in the case of regional foods or traditionally crafted goods. I'm all for preserving traditional ways of life if it makes sense, but I don't think iPhone assembly line production falls in that category. The US, Britain and the western world in general has grown rich exporting goods and services to the rest of the world and importing cheap commodities and goods. Fair trade benefits both sides of the bargain. It's time to set aside protectionism and recognise it for the pernicious imperialism and borderline racism it really is.

rbarooah 15y ago
Don't you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?
- mseebach 15y ago
  The Mao isolation was just a continuation of centuries of Ming isolation, and, emphatically, yes. I think the GP meant modern protectionism in the sense of "Buy American/British/etc" movements.
  - rbarooah 15y ago
    By talking about how the US and Britain had grown rich through trade and 'imperialist' protectionism and mentioning racism, the GP seemed to be implying that the poverty in China was somehow created by these western countries. Aren't those modern "buy British" or "buy American" movements voluntary? Might there not be good reasons for supporting those who are economically tied to you by culture and legal jurisdiction?
    - mseebach 15y ago
      There is no possible way I can read the GP to mean that. He only mentions imperialism and racism after talking about, and with clear reference to, "Buy American". Most of the movements are voluntary for now, but not all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009#Buy_American_provision http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestm... > Might there not be good reasons for supporting those who are economically tied to you by culture and legal jurisdiction? Yes and no. But if the support takes the form of a bail-out, you're just wasting your money while delaying the inevitable and making the eventual crash much more painful. If you instead let industries fizzle out over time, it's much easier for something to appear to take it's place.
      - rbarooah 15y ago
        So, do you disagree with the point in the original article about the bail-out of the auto industry preventing a much wider loss?
        rbarooah 15y ago
        Good grief. Downvoted multiple times without explanation? The original top-level article that this thread is about made what seemed to be a reasoned point at the end about the bailout of the auto-industry, and I am simply asking mseebach whether he disagrees with it, since he made reference to bailouts. Why on earth would that get downvoted?
  - mechnik 15y ago
- olalonde 15y ago
  Straw man.
  - rbarooah 15y ago
    How so?
    - olalonde 15y ago
      Parent didn't argue that American/British protectionism was worse than Mao's isolationism. He simply argued that American/British protectionism was bad for poor people in developing countries. > A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It seems to me that you are misrepresenting your opponent's position.
      - rbarooah 15y ago
        Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all. My question adds context that changes the weight of the parent's assertions. What I wrote isn't even an argument, so it can't be a straw man.
        olalonde 15y ago
        By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case: > Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? or even better: > On another note, do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?
        rbarooah 15y ago
        By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. This is where you are wrong. By phrasing it in the negative form I am implicitly asserting that I think that what follows is not my interlocutors opinion. So, no straw man.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
ArtB 15y ago
How about trying to create the greatest economy for our children? I care about the poor in China... but only after my own are taken care of. For me, family comes first, and then fellow citizens, and then the rest of the world.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

rbarooah 15y ago

I'm guessing you didn't read the piece. Wages are not the primary issue.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

bmelton 15y ago

Speaking Fenders (and Gibsons too, naturally,) there are checks in place to ensure that the US made versions are of the highest quality. My Les Paul was made in Canada. I do not believe that Canadians are unable to produce as high a quality guitar as US Americans, but they are, I believe, not allowed to. The difference in cost between an American Les Paul and its equivalent US model is approximately $250-300. The difference in quality is less. The smart money, among most guitarists, is to buy the non-US version, take it to a decent luthier, and give them $75-100 to bring it up to par which, in my experience, actually leaves you with a better guitar than the Memphis version (excluding the much more expensive customs.) Regardless, many consider the US version to be the best of the bunch, and are generally happy to pay the premium. The major difference of course is in the fit and finish. You have to enforce a quality difference that is, effectively, arbitrary. In Apple's case, that means deliberately reducing a lesser-quality product for the non-US products, which seems contrary to their 'ship perfection' mentality. It might work, it might not, but the key is in distinguishing between the product versions in some way. Perhaps this could be accomplished with a slightly different feature set, or maybe the 'white' iphone could be reserved for US manufacture, I dunno, but I honestly have a hard time imagining that there is a significant population of consumers willing to pay for the "Made in the USA" version, if only because the "Made in the USA" version of other products have not performed up to expectations.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

...paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. The point of the article is to illustrate that wages are not the only problem. Chaotic effects in multi-tier supply chains are also a real problem. I would pay more for an iPhone that I knew was made in America. I'm sure I'm not the only one. You are certainly a minority. I don't think most people value nationalism at $65. Personally, I'd rather have the jobs go to the people who need them most, rather than to people who are superficially "like me". But while assigning a $0 value to nationalism is probably a minority view, I suspect the majority view is far closer to $0 than to $65.

tosseraccount 15y ago
Therefore ... you'd happily give up your job to someone who needed more? Just to prove a point.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  I probably wouldn't be happy about it, but yes - if someone can do my job cheaper or better then I should be replaced.
  - OzzyB 15y ago
    I that before or after you gave him the know-how and IP to do so? </snark>
diogenescynic 15y ago
You only chose to respond to a portion of what I wrote or didn't read the first sentence so I've italicized it for clarification: they just might not be able to produce 100% of their products there [in Fremont]. Maybe you're not familiar with guitars either, but Fender American made are substantially more expensive but they are in definitely in demand. There is also demand for a cheaper entry level product--both products serve a need. Why do you think it has to be one or the other? What you're talking about sounds like Ayn Rand's objectivism--basing your argument 100% on cost. I think you're wrong about this--Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Red Wing Shoes, and local coop growth shows that people do care where they get their products from when given a choice. Also, please stop making assumptions about me: rather than to people who are superficially "like me". Where did I say this and where do you come off being so vitriolic? Personally I come to HN for an intellectual discussion and don't appreciate your condescending attitude, or mischaracterization of my comments, or lack of intellectual integrity, or your argument by fallacy. You responded to your own strawman argument because it was easier than responding to what I actually said. You argue like a bully--if I disagree with you I am 'nationalistic and superficial'? That seems like an elevated discussion.

ctdonath 15y ago

Did you read the article? The whole point is that you can't just "reopen the plants" because those plants rely on other suppliers in a complex fast-moving supply chain; in China those suppliers are practically next door and have turnaround times measured in hours, while in CA the suppliers are miles, states, or even continents away with turnaround times measured in weeks. One hiccup in supply (say, something's wrong with a screw and it must be redesigned and a new batch produced) means a train wreck of production backup (nothing ships until that modified screw is produced, which is weeks if you're waiting for the next container ship to bring it). He's not talking a mere matter of paying an extra $65 for "Made in USA" markings, he's talking the USA model of iPhone 5 costing ~$200 more and introduction/production being chronically behind the China version for months. "Lesseehere...I can buy this now for $X, or I can wait to buy the exact same thing (save for different markings) 6 weeks from now for $X+20%." Those Fremont factories won't be open long. And somehow methinks Fender's supply chain isn't as fast & complex as Apple's.

podperson 15y ago
And even if it weren't, Fender isn't producing new classes of mass market products with unknown demand.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
eitally 15y ago
This has been a slippery slope for the last 15-20 years, actually. If you look at the history of Acer & Asus, for example, you'll see that they both (Asus was actually started by a few ex-Acer engineers) as component suppliers to larger, western OEMs and contract manufacturers. As they got a foothold there, they expanded their offerings to include more complex manufacturing (motherboards, graphics cards, etc), which they parlayed into a lucrative ODM/JDM business, and then eventually launched their own consumer brands to compete directly with their former customers. It took a decade+ to get from point A-->B, but by the time they finished the transformation it was too late for the slow western behemoths to do anything about it. And that, as they say, is the rest of the story [of how the global supply chain got Asia-heavy, causing eventual movement of manufacturing & logistics to the region, too]. It hasn't just been labor costs -- not at all; it's that unless there are extenuating circumstances (e.g. Brazilian import tariffs) there is almost always more savings to be had via supply chain refinement than via direct labor cost reduction.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]