7 ms·

People go out of their way to install something else and don't use Edge and Bing because they are worse than the competition. Make a better product and people w

People go out of their way to install something else and don't use Edge and Bing because they are worse than the competition. Make a better product and people will actually use it. Just so to make the case that not every company is good at everything, Apple Maps, despite recent improvements is also utter crap, and even Apple is not around crying wolf to restrict competition.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>People go out of their way to install something else and don't use Edge and Bing because they are worse than the competition. Make a better product and people will actually use it. Well, Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows (faster, less memory usage, longer battery life) for years now, but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit. Humans are creatures of habit and the bad and good impressions from the old days tend to stick around regrades if the current realities have shifted, because people aren't into browser hopping for the sake of experimentation, especially if they're already invested in the ecosystem of one browser (have their cookies already there, have their passwords already stored, have an Android or a Chromebook). Edge could even cure cancer and people still wouldn't use it or give it a try, because the image that the default browser shipped with Windows (IE, Edge, whatever it happens to be called) must automatically be crap and Google's browser must automatically be better. So market success in the browser space is clearly no longer about having the better product, otherwise FF would have a higher market share, but about having the stronger brand and supporting ecosystem.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  They just had to give it some more time. But they didn't, Edge a year or two ago was pretty great but they gradually loaded it with crapware.
- hashtag-til 3y ago
  What is the killer Chrome feature, you think? (Sorry I'm not a chrome user for many years, I vaguely remember it was well integrated with google accounts, etc.)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >What is the killer Chrome feature, you think? Brand inertia and the tight integration with the Gmail/Chromebook/Android ecosystem, all of which are very popular products.
  - miohtama 3y ago
    Google’s advertising power by owning google.com web properties and Android OS.
    - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
      Not only that, but literally paying malware authors to non-consensually install Chrome on people's computers.
  - where-group-by 3y ago
    Not having the MSN home page opened every time I start the browser
    - sdk16420 3y ago
      Not having my browser nagging me to install Chrome every time I open search, maps or gmail?
- eptcyka 3y ago
  People like having agency. Being forced to constantly refuse Edge feels like their losing agency, which doesn't help Edge's brand image.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Agreed. But then what's the point of building a better and faster browser if all users are just gonna install the "slower" Chrome anyway out of habit? Clearly "build it and they will come" doesn't work organically once a competing player has an entrenched monopoly plus a strong brand image, regardless of how much better your product now is. Sometimes marketing and brand beats technical superiority and innovation. Not defending Microsoft's attempts to shove "better-Edge" down your throat as the solution to user growth, just asking a serious question on how else they could have convinced Chrome users to switch back to "better-Edge" the "nice way". We've all been there when we had a better solution/idea which didn't go through because nobody cared about it and the worse solution was pushed through.
    - hashtag-til 3y ago
      I agree with your points, just trying to build on that. If Edge had some feature that is impossible to miss (I guess like Chrome integration with google stuff), then people would feel more compelled to use it? Apart from that, if it is only a marketing issue, they should start by doing better marketing, perhaps.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        If Edge had some feature that is impossible to miss (I guess like Chrome integration with google stuff) then everyone here would cry foul that microsoft is using their dominating market position to create a dependency for edge. the real argument against edge should not be that it would be worse. i would not use it even if it were 10 times better. the argument should be that it is owned by a company that dominates the desktop market. the only way to justify the existence for edge is to make it an independent product that is not owned by microsoft. the same goes for chrome
    - 3y ago
- miohtama 3y ago
  It’s out of habit and also when you go to google.com they tell you to install Chrome instead.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > Well, Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows (faster, less memory usage, longer battery life) for years now, but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit. Or maybe it's not habit because Edge is objectively tied for worst browser on Windows on privacy: https://apple.slashdot.org/story/20/03/07/0054219/edge-br https://apple.slashdot.org/story/20/03/07/0054219/edge-br owser-scores-worst-in-test-of-telemetry-privacy
- crop_rotation 3y ago
  This comment is absurd. > Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows No, Edge is not "objectively" better. It is not even better privacy wise, seeing that it will sell it's users for anything (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288052), I can paste more and more such examples. Two products which are this similar can not be "objectively" better than each other enough to force one down everyone's throat. > but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit. Then MSFT should fire their marketing department and start afresh. People know about other browsers like Vivaldi and Brave so they can clearly be explained about Edge's virtues with the immense MSFT budget. > Humans are creatures of habit and the bad and good impressions from the old days tend to stick around regrades if the current realities have shifted, By this logic all agency can be taken from people and they should be forced to use products deemed "objectively better". > So market success in the browser space is clearly no longer about having the better product, but about having the stronger brand and supporting ecosystem. Regardless of my views on the demerits of Edge, this is true of every industry and if MSFT doesn't know how to build a brand and ecosystem, clearly lots of execs need to step down.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >No, Edge is not "objectively" better. Which benchmarks have you looked at to make this contradiction? It definetly is objectively better on Windows if you look at benchmarks on speed, memory usage and battery life, which is what most average users care about in a browers, and the reason why most switched from IE to Chrome originally. Your average user has no idea nor do they care about the whole online privacy implications of a browser or any other SW product or service, otherwise they would have never touched Chrome, the product of an ad company, in the first place. >By this logic all agency can be taken from people and they should be forced to use products deemed "objectively better". You're drawing some really silly straw-men here for you to fight. >if MSFT doesn't know how to build a brand and ecosystem, clearly lots of execs need to step down. Agreed, but when was the last time you saw a big corp perform mass layoffs of execs?
    - chankstein38 3y ago
- theonlybutlet 3y ago
  I loved using Edge but their disregard for privacy and lack of control over my own data, was too much. I still part use it on my work machine (it's not my data so I care less).
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    More disregard for privacy than Google the ad company lol?
    - theonlybutlet 3y ago
      From what I could see, surprisingly yes, specifically when it came to control over my data. But I actually use Firefox.
- persnickety 3y ago
  > objectively better Is this some braindead new trope on HN? I'm seeing it the second time on HN today. There is and cannot be anything objective about "better" unless the choice of "better" is explicitly and unambiguously stated. "Objectively taller"? OK. "Objectively more infectious"? Not impossible to show in context. "Objectively better"? Idiotic. My "better" is the opposite of yours, what now?
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >is this some braindead new trope on HN? I'm seeing it the second time on HN today. There is and cannot be anything objective about "better" unless the choice of "better" is explicitly and unambiguously stated. Mate, I explicitly mentioned the meaning of "better" in the context of browsers: faster, less memory usage, longer battery life. If you have trouble reading text, maybe go back to finish school first before commenting on technical topics. Also, please stop acting like a 10 year old on X-box live insulting people calling them braindead just because you don't agree with their opinion. You're breaking HN rules.
    - persnickety 3y ago
      Congrats, you defined "better". The post can't be complete without the "objectively" part though.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        You still haven't understood what objective means in the context of a web browser. That's what benchmarks and tests are for, to quantify objective performance of something be it a car or a web browser. You might not agree with the importance of certain benchmarks or performance metrics because you think the UI is more important to you, but that's called subjectivity then.
        persnickety 3y ago
        "Objective" means "supported by verified facts". Benchmarks are facts. I'm not seeing those in your post.
- hulitu 3y ago
  > Well, Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows (faster, less memory usage, longer battery life) for years now, but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit On my work computer (with Chrome installed), Edge opens by default every URL. And it is worse than Chrome (MS own aurhentication works better in Chrome that in Edge). Battery life is eaten by svchost.exe (and its subprocesses).
Krssst 3y ago
> Make a better product and people will actually use it. If I am frequently advertised a product or tricked into using a product against my will, not matter how good it is I will prefer alternatives. (not saying that's Edge; I have not used Windows 11 so I don't know what actually happens when using it or trying to download a browser)
- rjst01 3y ago
  When you try to use Edge to download Chrome, it aggressively prompts you to not install Chrome and just keep using Edge. I imagine it's similar if you try to install Firefox. (On the other hand, while Apple has been taking unix tools out of the default install, Windows now comes with a bundled curl, so I just use that to download Chrome)
  - sgift 3y ago
    What counts as aggressive is obviously a personal opinion, but what it did was open an (ignorable) dialog in the url bar stating that Edge is based on the same technology as Chrome and with better performance (and a button to switch to the edge download page). Also, it didn't do anything when I tried to download Firefox (from the standard download page).
    - rjst01 3y ago
      Eye of the beholder, sure, but I would argue that when my computer prompts me more than once not to do something that is my clearly expressed intent, that counts as aggressive. Hell, it's less aggressive about prompting you not to run malware.
Krasnol 3y ago
The success of Chrome and their shady ways of delivery on PC (bundled with Shareware and Freeware) shows them that people will use it if you push it onto them. They just have to push harder...
seydor 3y ago
It's a better product in many ways. It can read aloud documents, and it offers GPT features for free. Besides browser engines are similar. But google has done a better job of locking-in users and, eventhough it is not that hard to switch passwords etc, people like me don't want to have multiple copies of their data so we don't switch. Google took advantage of the network lock-in features by adding profiles, all your passwords, your history etc etc. I want to use only 1 browser in all operating systems now, so I don't switch. The switch might have happened with Firefox , but not with Edge
- bad_user 3y ago
  I haven't opened Edge in a while, but it used to give you a consent dialog from IAB, with which Microsoft informed you that they share your data with the entire advertising industry. Its telemetry is probably impossible to deactivate. Like Chrome, it also shares an advertising ID that tracks you, meant for Bing Ads. Edge doesn't e2e encrypt your synchronized data. Edge is hardcoded to use Bing even more than Chrome is hardcoded to use Google's Search. And overall it seems more bloated. I want a browser not a coupons dispenser. Bing's AI is available for other browsers as well. That sidebar is nice, but I can live without it. I really don't understand why people say that Edge is a better browser, when it's objectively the worst of the mainstream ones.
tomjen3 3y ago
Lots of people from our generation are automatically going to turn down Edge because it comes from Microsoft and so gets mentally stashed with Internet Explorer. In reality its a Chrome clone that is slightly better integrated with the Office suite and which will let you access Bing chat. Speaking of Bing chat, how many people don't use it because it is named Bing? Bing was a joke for so long and the more Microsoft pushed it, the more of joke it was.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>People go out of their way to install something else and don't use Edge and Bing because they are worse than the competition. Make a better product and people will actually use it. Well, Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows (faster, less memory usage, longer battery life) for years now, but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit. Humans are creatures of habit and the bad and good impressions from the old days tend to stick around regrades if the current realities have shifted, because people aren't into browser hopping for the sake of experimentation, especially if they're already invested in the ecosystem of one browser (have their cookies already there, have their passwords already stored, have an Android or a Chromebook). Edge could even cure cancer and people still wouldn't use it or give it a try, because the image that the default browser shipped with Windows (IE, Edge, whatever it happens to be called) must automatically be crap and Google's browser must automatically be better. So market success in the browser space is clearly no longer about having the better product, otherwise FF would have a higher market share, but about having the stronger brand and supporting ecosystem.

skrebbel 3y ago
They just had to give it some more time. But they didn't, Edge a year or two ago was pretty great but they gradually loaded it with crapware.
hashtag-til 3y ago
What is the killer Chrome feature, you think? (Sorry I'm not a chrome user for many years, I vaguely remember it was well integrated with google accounts, etc.)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >What is the killer Chrome feature, you think? Brand inertia and the tight integration with the Gmail/Chromebook/Android ecosystem, all of which are very popular products.
- miohtama 3y ago
  Google’s advertising power by owning google.com web properties and Android OS.
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    Not only that, but literally paying malware authors to non-consensually install Chrome on people's computers.
- where-group-by 3y ago
  Not having the MSN home page opened every time I start the browser
  - sdk16420 3y ago
    Not having my browser nagging me to install Chrome every time I open search, maps or gmail?
eptcyka 3y ago
People like having agency. Being forced to constantly refuse Edge feels like their losing agency, which doesn't help Edge's brand image.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Agreed. But then what's the point of building a better and faster browser if all users are just gonna install the "slower" Chrome anyway out of habit? Clearly "build it and they will come" doesn't work organically once a competing player has an entrenched monopoly plus a strong brand image, regardless of how much better your product now is. Sometimes marketing and brand beats technical superiority and innovation. Not defending Microsoft's attempts to shove "better-Edge" down your throat as the solution to user growth, just asking a serious question on how else they could have convinced Chrome users to switch back to "better-Edge" the "nice way". We've all been there when we had a better solution/idea which didn't go through because nobody cared about it and the worse solution was pushed through.
  - hashtag-til 3y ago
    I agree with your points, just trying to build on that. If Edge had some feature that is impossible to miss (I guess like Chrome integration with google stuff), then people would feel more compelled to use it? Apart from that, if it is only a marketing issue, they should start by doing better marketing, perhaps.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      If Edge had some feature that is impossible to miss (I guess like Chrome integration with google stuff) then everyone here would cry foul that microsoft is using their dominating market position to create a dependency for edge. the real argument against edge should not be that it would be worse. i would not use it even if it were 10 times better. the argument should be that it is owned by a company that dominates the desktop market. the only way to justify the existence for edge is to make it an independent product that is not owned by microsoft. the same goes for chrome
  - 3y ago
miohtama 3y ago
It’s out of habit and also when you go to google.com they tell you to install Chrome instead.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> Well, Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows (faster, less memory usage, longer battery life) for years now, but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit. Or maybe it's not habit because Edge is objectively tied for worst browser on Windows on privacy: https://apple.slashdot.org/story/20/03/07/0054219/edge-br https://apple.slashdot.org/story/20/03/07/0054219/edge-br owser-scores-worst-in-test-of-telemetry-privacy
crop_rotation 3y ago
This comment is absurd. > Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows No, Edge is not "objectively" better. It is not even better privacy wise, seeing that it will sell it's users for anything (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288052 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288052), I can paste more and more such examples. Two products which are this similar can not be "objectively" better than each other enough to force one down everyone's throat. > but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit. Then MSFT should fire their marketing department and start afresh. People know about other browsers like Vivaldi and Brave so they can clearly be explained about Edge's virtues with the immense MSFT budget. > Humans are creatures of habit and the bad and good impressions from the old days tend to stick around regrades if the current realities have shifted, By this logic all agency can be taken from people and they should be forced to use products deemed "objectively better". > So market success in the browser space is clearly no longer about having the better product, but about having the stronger brand and supporting ecosystem. Regardless of my views on the demerits of Edge, this is true of every industry and if MSFT doesn't know how to build a brand and ecosystem, clearly lots of execs need to step down.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >No, Edge is not "objectively" better. Which benchmarks have you looked at to make this contradiction? It definetly is objectively better on Windows if you look at benchmarks on speed, memory usage and battery life, which is what most average users care about in a browers, and the reason why most switched from IE to Chrome originally. Your average user has no idea nor do they care about the whole online privacy implications of a browser or any other SW product or service, otherwise they would have never touched Chrome, the product of an ad company, in the first place. >By this logic all agency can be taken from people and they should be forced to use products deemed "objectively better". You're drawing some really silly straw-men here for you to fight. >if MSFT doesn't know how to build a brand and ecosystem, clearly lots of execs need to step down. Agreed, but when was the last time you saw a big corp perform mass layoffs of execs?
  - chankstein38 3y ago
theonlybutlet 3y ago
I loved using Edge but their disregard for privacy and lack of control over my own data, was too much. I still part use it on my work machine (it's not my data so I care less).
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  More disregard for privacy than Google the ad company lol?
  - theonlybutlet 3y ago
    From what I could see, surprisingly yes, specifically when it came to control over my data. But I actually use Firefox.
persnickety 3y ago
> objectively better Is this some braindead new trope on HN? I'm seeing it the second time on HN today. There is and cannot be anything objective about "better" unless the choice of "better" is explicitly and unambiguously stated. "Objectively taller"? OK. "Objectively more infectious"? Not impossible to show in context. "Objectively better"? Idiotic. My "better" is the opposite of yours, what now?
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >is this some braindead new trope on HN? I'm seeing it the second time on HN today. There is and cannot be anything objective about "better" unless the choice of "better" is explicitly and unambiguously stated. Mate, I explicitly mentioned the meaning of "better" in the context of browsers: faster, less memory usage, longer battery life. If you have trouble reading text, maybe go back to finish school first before commenting on technical topics. Also, please stop acting like a 10 year old on X-box live insulting people calling them braindead just because you don't agree with their opinion. You're breaking HN rules.
  - persnickety 3y ago
    Congrats, you defined "better". The post can't be complete without the "objectively" part though.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      You still haven't understood what objective means in the context of a web browser. That's what benchmarks and tests are for, to quantify objective performance of something be it a car or a web browser. You might not agree with the importance of certain benchmarks or performance metrics because you think the UI is more important to you, but that's called subjectivity then.
      - persnickety 3y ago
        "Objective" means "supported by verified facts". Benchmarks are facts. I'm not seeing those in your post.
hulitu 3y ago
> Well, Edge has objectively been better than Chrome on Windows (faster, less memory usage, longer battery life) for years now, but almost nobody knows this as people still default to installing Chrome out of 10+ years of habit On my work computer (with Chrome installed), Edge opens by default every URL. And it is worse than Chrome (MS own aurhentication works better in Chrome that in Edge). Battery life is eaten by svchost.exe (and its subprocesses).

Krssst 3y ago

> Make a better product and people will actually use it. If I am frequently advertised a product or tricked into using a product against my will, not matter how good it is I will prefer alternatives. (not saying that's Edge; I have not used Windows 11 so I don't know what actually happens when using it or trying to download a browser)

rjst01 3y ago
When you try to use Edge to download Chrome, it aggressively prompts you to not install Chrome and just keep using Edge. I imagine it's similar if you try to install Firefox. (On the other hand, while Apple has been taking unix tools out of the default install, Windows now comes with a bundled curl, so I just use that to download Chrome)
- sgift 3y ago
  What counts as aggressive is obviously a personal opinion, but what it did was open an (ignorable) dialog in the url bar stating that Edge is based on the same technology as Chrome and with better performance (and a button to switch to the edge download page). Also, it didn't do anything when I tried to download Firefox (from the standard download page).
  - rjst01 3y ago
    Eye of the beholder, sure, but I would argue that when my computer prompts me more than once not to do something that is my clearly expressed intent, that counts as aggressive. Hell, it's less aggressive about prompting you not to run malware.

Krasnol 3y ago

The success of Chrome and their shady ways of delivery on PC (bundled with Shareware and Freeware) shows them that people will use it if you push it onto them. They just have to push harder...

seydor 3y ago

It's a better product in many ways. It can read aloud documents, and it offers GPT features for free. Besides browser engines are similar. But google has done a better job of locking-in users and, eventhough it is not that hard to switch passwords etc, people like me don't want to have multiple copies of their data so we don't switch. Google took advantage of the network lock-in features by adding profiles, all your passwords, your history etc etc. I want to use only 1 browser in all operating systems now, so I don't switch. The switch might have happened with Firefox , but not with Edge

bad_user 3y ago
I haven't opened Edge in a while, but it used to give you a consent dialog from IAB, with which Microsoft informed you that they share your data with the entire advertising industry. Its telemetry is probably impossible to deactivate. Like Chrome, it also shares an advertising ID that tracks you, meant for Bing Ads. Edge doesn't e2e encrypt your synchronized data. Edge is hardcoded to use Bing even more than Chrome is hardcoded to use Google's Search. And overall it seems more bloated. I want a browser not a coupons dispenser. Bing's AI is available for other browsers as well. That sidebar is nice, but I can live without it. I really don't understand why people say that Edge is a better browser, when it's objectively the worst of the mainstream ones.

tomjen3 3y ago

Lots of people from our generation are automatically going to turn down Edge because it comes from Microsoft and so gets mentally stashed with Internet Explorer. In reality its a Chrome clone that is slightly better integrated with the Office suite and which will let you access Bing chat. Speaking of Bing chat, how many people don't use it because it is named Bing? Bing was a joke for so long and the more Microsoft pushed it, the more of joke it was.