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> Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters Could you point out which law? I don't think there is something exp

> Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters Could you point out which law? I don't think there is something explicit like that.

dist-epoch 3y ago
> Article 7: All organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts in accordance with law, and shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t... https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-national-intelligence-law/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-na...
- dumb1224 3y ago
  well there is no mention of active spying, nor obligation. The original text in chinese sounds even more vague. I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge but I think personal obligation is a bit exaggerated.
  - dist-epoch 3y ago
    Law scholars disagree. "Citizen, national security requires you to give us all computer files you have access to regarding X technology. It also requires you to keep quiet about this". > I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge You realize that in China judges do what the government says in national security cases. And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time.
    - dumb1224 3y ago
      Which law scholars? I actually have a close friend who is a judge. And what you described is not heard of in his career. > And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time. It is very hard to have a good-faithed discussion if you assert generalisation like this. Do you have any statistics? Any real cases you've personally encountered? I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. At least in my region, what so true. That's just my 2 cents.
      - T-A 3y ago
        A random sample by quick googling, date-sorted for your convenience: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-is-being-tracked-and-harassed-in-australia-by-chinese-police/y34x0r7w6 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-i... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china-cracks-down-on-students-who-speak-out https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-china-detained-and-harassed-as-beijing-prepares-for-party-congress https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-... https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-dissidents-in-53-countries-with-its-overseas-police-stations-583846 https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-di... https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-members-of-dissidents/102047 https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-membe... https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detained-in-thailand-accused-of-bomb-threats-/7200022.html https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detaine... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-global-transnational-repression-campaign https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-globa... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-georgetown-09282023111042.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-... https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-return-of-dissident-back-to-china-while-activists-critical-of-mining-projects-face-harassment/ https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-ret...
        dumb1224 3y ago
        Thanks for searching on the internet for links to news stories. I should clarify that I was simply trying to add my personal experience into the discussion. I'm not denying there are published in main stream media. But can you personally verify all these reports? I don't think so. Will anyone research in chinese resources? I highly doubt too. So it's a different type of discussion. I'm sure some of the events are true but what are the incident rate / false positive or negatives. In my region I think the probability is extremely low. Other regions of China? I can't quantify.

> Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters Could you point out which law? I don't think there is something explicit like that.

dist-epoch 3y ago

> Article 7: All organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts in accordance with law, and shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t... https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-national-intelligence-law/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-na...

dumb1224 3y ago
well there is no mention of active spying, nor obligation. The original text in chinese sounds even more vague. I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge but I think personal obligation is a bit exaggerated.
- dist-epoch 3y ago
  Law scholars disagree. "Citizen, national security requires you to give us all computer files you have access to regarding X technology. It also requires you to keep quiet about this". > I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge You realize that in China judges do what the government says in national security cases. And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time.
  - dumb1224 3y ago
    Which law scholars? I actually have a close friend who is a judge. And what you described is not heard of in his career. > And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time. It is very hard to have a good-faithed discussion if you assert generalisation like this. Do you have any statistics? Any real cases you've personally encountered? I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. At least in my region, what so true. That's just my 2 cents.
    - T-A 3y ago
      A random sample by quick googling, date-sorted for your convenience: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-is-being-tracked-and-harassed-in-australia-by-chinese-police/y34x0r7w6 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-i... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china-cracks-down-on-students-who-speak-out https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-china-detained-and-harassed-as-beijing-prepares-for-party-congress https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-... https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-dissidents-in-53-countries-with-its-overseas-police-stations-583846 https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-di... https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-members-of-dissidents/102047 https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-membe... https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detained-in-thailand-accused-of-bomb-threats-/7200022.html https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detaine... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-global-transnational-repression-campaign https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-globa... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-georgetown-09282023111042.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-... https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-return-of-dissident-back-to-china-while-activists-critical-of-mining-projects-face-harassment/ https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-ret...
      - dumb1224 3y ago
        Thanks for searching on the internet for links to news stories. I should clarify that I was simply trying to add my personal experience into the discussion. I'm not denying there are published in main stream media. But can you personally verify all these reports? I don't think so. Will anyone research in chinese resources? I highly doubt too. So it's a different type of discussion. I'm sure some of the events are true but what are the incident rate / false positive or negatives. In my region I think the probability is extremely low. Other regions of China? I can't quantify.