8 ms·

We need to go there so we can study it properly. What would the Victorians, or Columbus, think of us if they saw how we gave up after going to the moon a few ti

We need to go there so we can study it properly. What would the Victorians, or Columbus, think of us if they saw how we gave up after going to the moon a few times.

mcv 3y ago
I think they would first want to know if there were any natives worth enslaving there. I kid. I agree we should go there. But not because of Columbus specifically.
- Jeff_Brown 3y ago
  It's actually an interesting comparison. If the Queen of Spain circa 1500 had today's technology she wouldn't care nearly as much about Mars as she did then about India (sic) because extracting anything from Mars can't possibly be profitable yet. She wasn't in it for the science; she was in it for god, glory and gold, and not necessarily in that order.
  - jimnotgym 3y ago
    On the other hand both Spanish capital and Columbus personally took a huge risk. They knew less about what lay ahead than we know about Mars. They new the rewards were high, but the risks were enormous.
    - Jeff_Brown 3y ago
      Colombus and his band of scoundrels certainly took a huge risk. He was hell-bent on joining the aristocracy, and it seems to have made him willing to believe and argue things that a less motivated person might not have done. Google says his whole expedition cost about 1.5 million maravedis. I'm not finding what fraction of the Spanish crown's budget that was. Do you know?
- gosub100 3y ago
  And in 600 years, modern society might consider _us_ slaves for having to work under duress for the wealthy elite.
yieldcrv 3y ago
“there must not have been any gold”
idlewords 3y ago
More accurate is we can either go there or study it properly. A human mission to Mars would be entirely dedicated to keeping the crew alive; only remote probes can do real exploration for the foreseeable future.
- nsxwolf 3y ago
  The robots we've sent thus far seem far more limited than what humans could do with their own hands and standard tools and lab equipment. We wait decades to maybe get a tiny sample of a rock.
  - idlewords 3y ago
    This is a common thing that trips people up — you can't compare the capabilities of robots on Mars with what humans can do on Earth. You have to compare like with like, and a human crew on Mars would essentially be living in a Level 4 biocontainment facility and remotely operating the same kind of robots we could send to the planet autonomously. And their effective time available for work would be worse even than ISS, where the entire station (6 people) does something like 35 hours/week of science. Robotic Mars exploration has made huge progress on what is a shoestring budget compared to boondoggles like Artemis or ISS. Just look at the improvement between Sojourner and Ingenuity and imagine what an adequately funded robotic exploration program could look like.
    - jodrellblank 3y ago
      > "worse even than ISS, where the entire station (6 people) does something like 35 hours/week of science." You may have seen China launching their youngest ever crew to their space station this week, and I noticed the quotes from the three crew members: "I'm solely focused on the mission, on how to accomplish the mission successfully. I have to get prepared every minute, every second, and this was my aspiration when I joined the Air Force, and that aspiration has never changed," said Tang Hongbo, Commander. "I feel that I am fully prepared physically, mentally and technically. I am confident to complete this upcoming flight mission. In fact, to be honest, I can't wait to carry out the mission now." - Tang Shengjie, Operator. "Talking about the roles and responsibilities, I will try my best to complete the routine maintenance of the space station" - Jiang Xinlin, Operator. One of those sounds less exciting than the others. [1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-10-25/China-unveils-Shenzhou-17-crew-for-space-station-mission-1obkmdpDOx2/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-10-25/China-unveils-Shenzhou...
datameta 3y ago
Columbus is not a measuring stick for human exploration... Nevertheless I think some would be flabberghasted that such a leap fizzled out but some would wonder why we went in the first place if not to gather resources.
- rsynnott 3y ago
  I think they’d have gotten the Cold War dick measuring aspect, or at least the Victorians would have; a lot of 19th century colonialism was of that general form (in particular see Germany in Africa).
paxys 3y ago
Victorians/Columbus didn't exactly have scientific study on their mind. If there was oil or gold on Mars it would have been "discovered" several times over by now. Also I'm not sure how we've "given up" considering there are two rovers on Mars right now, the last one going as recently as 2021, plus several more in development. People expecting Mars colonies by now have been reading too much sci-fi.
- frutiger 3y ago
  Wouldn’t discovering a massive supply of gold on Mars instantly devalue it?
  - paxys 3y ago
    Not if you control how much you mine and bring home.
    - HPsquared 3y ago
      OGIC "Organization of Gold Importing Corporations"
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      First I laughed, then I remembered it worked with diamonds.
  - colanderman 3y ago
    Not if you are the first and establish exclusive control of the supply.
    - lagniappe 3y ago
      Find out who that person is, and bring them water.
  - gus_massa 3y ago
    The shipping and handling fees are astronomical. Sending gold to Mars is very expensive. Sending gold from Mars is even more expensive. In particular there are no oil deposits in Mars, so kerosene for the return rocket is very expensive. (Hydrogen and Oxygen are very expensive too.) Note that there is already a huge amount of gold in the oceans, but it's very diluted so it's too expensive to extract. You don't want to just know that there is gold. You want to know how much profit you would get after the gold bars arrive to Fort Knox.
bigbillheck 3y ago
Columbus was a pretty rotten human being, if his ghost is looking up at us from Hell I don't care what he thinks.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
usrbinbash 3y ago
> We need to go there so we can study it properly. The only thing that would accomplish, compared to sending robotic probes, is wasted payload capacity that could otherwise transport scientific instruments.
huthuthike 3y ago
Well it took Columbus 2 months and 9 days to get across the Atlantic. He never made it to India, which was his original goal. The first expedition from Europe to India via the ocean was by Vasco da Gama and it took him around 10 months. Earth to the moon is 240,000 miles. Earth to Mars at it's closest approach is 34 million miles. So this would be like telling Columbus to sail not for 2 months and 9 days, but for 27 years to get to India. He wasn't even willing to sail for 10 months to do it! (Also bear in mind that's the one-way timeframe; the return from Mars would be about twice as long in this scenario.) And not only that but also let Columbus know there won't be any gold, spices, or slaves at the end of the trip. See how willing he is to dedicate the next 81 years of his life to it. Hopefully this puts the interplanetary distance in perspective.
- notfish 3y ago
  It doesnt take 27 years to get to mars. If you push, you can get it down to like 8 months or shorter - it depends how much fuel you bring. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars
  - huthuthike 3y ago
    You are right about that. My post was answering a poster about "how would Columbus feel that we went to the moon but not to Mars?" The 27 year timeframe is an analogy comparing the distance to the moon vs the distance to Mars, and relating it back to the timeframe it took Columbus to do his famous voyage.

We need to go there so we can study it properly. What would the Victorians, or Columbus, think of us if they saw how we gave up after going to the moon a few times.

mcv 3y ago

I think they would first want to know if there were any natives worth enslaving there. I kid. I agree we should go there. But not because of Columbus specifically.

Jeff_Brown 3y ago
It's actually an interesting comparison. If the Queen of Spain circa 1500 had today's technology she wouldn't care nearly as much about Mars as she did then about India (sic) because extracting anything from Mars can't possibly be profitable yet. She wasn't in it for the science; she was in it for god, glory and gold, and not necessarily in that order.
- jimnotgym 3y ago
  On the other hand both Spanish capital and Columbus personally took a huge risk. They knew less about what lay ahead than we know about Mars. They new the rewards were high, but the risks were enormous.
  - Jeff_Brown 3y ago
    Colombus and his band of scoundrels certainly took a huge risk. He was hell-bent on joining the aristocracy, and it seems to have made him willing to believe and argue things that a less motivated person might not have done. Google says his whole expedition cost about 1.5 million maravedis. I'm not finding what fraction of the Spanish crown's budget that was. Do you know?
gosub100 3y ago
And in 600 years, modern society might consider _us_ slaves for having to work under duress for the wealthy elite.

yieldcrv 3y ago

“there must not have been any gold”

idlewords 3y ago

More accurate is we can either go there or study it properly. A human mission to Mars would be entirely dedicated to keeping the crew alive; only remote probes can do real exploration for the foreseeable future.

nsxwolf 3y ago
The robots we've sent thus far seem far more limited than what humans could do with their own hands and standard tools and lab equipment. We wait decades to maybe get a tiny sample of a rock.
- idlewords 3y ago
  This is a common thing that trips people up — you can't compare the capabilities of robots on Mars with what humans can do on Earth. You have to compare like with like, and a human crew on Mars would essentially be living in a Level 4 biocontainment facility and remotely operating the same kind of robots we could send to the planet autonomously. And their effective time available for work would be worse even than ISS, where the entire station (6 people) does something like 35 hours/week of science. Robotic Mars exploration has made huge progress on what is a shoestring budget compared to boondoggles like Artemis or ISS. Just look at the improvement between Sojourner and Ingenuity and imagine what an adequately funded robotic exploration program could look like.
  - jodrellblank 3y ago
    > "worse even than ISS, where the entire station (6 people) does something like 35 hours/week of science." You may have seen China launching their youngest ever crew to their space station this week, and I noticed the quotes from the three crew members: "I'm solely focused on the mission, on how to accomplish the mission successfully. I have to get prepared every minute, every second, and this was my aspiration when I joined the Air Force, and that aspiration has never changed," said Tang Hongbo, Commander. "I feel that I am fully prepared physically, mentally and technically. I am confident to complete this upcoming flight mission. In fact, to be honest, I can't wait to carry out the mission now." - Tang Shengjie, Operator. "Talking about the roles and responsibilities, I will try my best to complete the routine maintenance of the space station" - Jiang Xinlin, Operator. One of those sounds less exciting than the others. [1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-10-25/China-unveils-Shenzhou-17-crew-for-space-station-mission-1obkmdpDOx2/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-10-25/China-unveils-Shenzhou...

datameta 3y ago

Columbus is not a measuring stick for human exploration... Nevertheless I think some would be flabberghasted that such a leap fizzled out but some would wonder why we went in the first place if not to gather resources.

rsynnott 3y ago
I think they’d have gotten the Cold War dick measuring aspect, or at least the Victorians would have; a lot of 19th century colonialism was of that general form (in particular see Germany in Africa).

paxys 3y ago

Victorians/Columbus didn't exactly have scientific study on their mind. If there was oil or gold on Mars it would have been "discovered" several times over by now. Also I'm not sure how we've "given up" considering there are two rovers on Mars right now, the last one going as recently as 2021, plus several more in development. People expecting Mars colonies by now have been reading too much sci-fi.

frutiger 3y ago
Wouldn’t discovering a massive supply of gold on Mars instantly devalue it?
- paxys 3y ago
  Not if you control how much you mine and bring home.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    OGIC "Organization of Gold Importing Corporations"
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    First I laughed, then I remembered it worked with diamonds.
- colanderman 3y ago
  Not if you are the first and establish exclusive control of the supply.
  - lagniappe 3y ago
    Find out who that person is, and bring them water.
- gus_massa 3y ago
  The shipping and handling fees are astronomical. Sending gold to Mars is very expensive. Sending gold from Mars is even more expensive. In particular there are no oil deposits in Mars, so kerosene for the return rocket is very expensive. (Hydrogen and Oxygen are very expensive too.) Note that there is already a huge amount of gold in the oceans, but it's very diluted so it's too expensive to extract. You don't want to just know that there is gold. You want to know how much profit you would get after the gold bars arrive to Fort Knox.

bigbillheck 3y ago

Columbus was a pretty rotten human being, if his ghost is looking up at us from Hell I don't care what he thinks.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

usrbinbash 3y ago

> We need to go there so we can study it properly. The only thing that would accomplish, compared to sending robotic probes, is wasted payload capacity that could otherwise transport scientific instruments.

huthuthike 3y ago

Well it took Columbus 2 months and 9 days to get across the Atlantic. He never made it to India, which was his original goal. The first expedition from Europe to India via the ocean was by Vasco da Gama and it took him around 10 months. Earth to the moon is 240,000 miles. Earth to Mars at it's closest approach is 34 million miles. So this would be like telling Columbus to sail not for 2 months and 9 days, but for 27 years to get to India. He wasn't even willing to sail for 10 months to do it! (Also bear in mind that's the one-way timeframe; the return from Mars would be about twice as long in this scenario.) And not only that but also let Columbus know there won't be any gold, spices, or slaves at the end of the trip. See how willing he is to dedicate the next 81 years of his life to it. Hopefully this puts the interplanetary distance in perspective.

notfish 3y ago
It doesnt take 27 years to get to mars. If you push, you can get it down to like 8 months or shorter - it depends how much fuel you bring. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars
- huthuthike 3y ago
  You are right about that. My post was answering a poster about "how would Columbus feel that we went to the moon but not to Mars?" The 27 year timeframe is an analogy comparing the distance to the moon vs the distance to Mars, and relating it back to the timeframe it took Columbus to do his famous voyage.