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Denmark Aims a Wrecking Ball at 'Non-Western' Neighborhoods
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bukkykatz 3y agoMaybe the non western folks should not have been let in to begin with?
- jgwil2 3y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20231026043045/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/world/europe/denmark-housing.html https://web.archive.org/web/20231026043045/https://www.nytim...
- huytersd 3y agoI like it especially if it is a genuine attempt at integration and not a way to force poor immigrants out of desirable real estate.
- dfxm12 3y agoIn practice, that means thousands of apartments will be demolished, sold to private investors or replaced with new housing catering to wealthier (and often nonimmigrant) residents, to increase the social mix. It sounds like this is already answered...
- huytersd 3y agoIt seems partial to encourage assimilation. The question remains as to what happens to those displaced but I think the Danes might have a satisfactory answer as this experiment is not being run by the right.
- ExoticPearTree 3y agoThe thing is that those who want to integrate will put in a lot of effort in this direction and eventually will make it. The reality is that the majority does not want to integrate. That's why you have places now that are immigrant only with little to no public order in Denmark, Sweden, France and the rest of the countries that received a large number of immigrants. It is not about real-estate, it is about people not behaving like the host country expects them to behave and the end result will probably be mass deportations back to the places they came from or maybe other countries in the same region they came from.
- huytersd 3y agoYou can encourage people to integrate. It’s not a genetic unchangeable.
- wang_li 3y agoDenmark requires all immigrant children to take classes on being Danish.
- ExoticPearTree 3y agoMakes sense. Every time I go to a new country I read about what to do and not to do there and behave accordingly. I consider going to another country as going to someone's house, hence I'm not going to behave like I do at home.
- pjc50 3y agoYou cannot in general deport people to countries they did not come from, because they have no right to immigrate there either. The UK's attempt to do this with Rwanda required a massive bribe.
- ExoticPearTree 3y agoThere are a few examples where a lot of immigrants from Africa were turned around and sent to Libya. So precedent exists, especially if you send them to places without functioning governments.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago[dead]
- pauldenton 3y agoIf both parents are from a country and their child is born in Sweden he could qualify for dual citizenship. If the child is under 18 deporting both their parents is effectively deporting them, even if they were born in the country
- bovermyer 3y agoThat sounds like an attempt to erase non-government-approved culture to me.
- huytersd 3y ago[flagged]
- hef19898 3y agoOr a permanent resident. Or a Danish or EU citizen.
- martini333 3y agoIf by "non-government-approved culture" you mean crime, then yes.
- jgeada 3y agoDo not migrate into a country if you're not prepared to adopt their culture. Seems straightforward to me.
- anthk 3y agoIf your culture makes women and LGBT people inferior, to hell with that culture, the same way the Western world tried to do with die-hard Church sickos two centuries ago in the French Revolution. OFC changes to women didn't come overnight, but it was a tiny step on the right direction.
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoWould you therefore be in favour of putting the Amish and the Mennonite communities in re-education camps?
- anthk 3y agoAny culture which puts their own citizens under a subhuman second class one should be ultimately fined and sanctioned, of course. Romanticism sucks. You maybe as an American idolize old cultures and traits; as an European, I laugh on that supposed tradition praising the idiocy and being a backwards hick over a progressive reality. Keep your tradition to Holidays, music and dance lores and the rest of inocuous folklore, that's fine. But don't ever try to bring these old values back, no one with proper sanity would ever want to go back to the XIX century.
- 445hh5 3y ago[flagged]
- javajosh 3y ago“The blend of people from different layers of society is getting higher,” Thomas Monberg, a member of Parliament and the Social Democrats’ spokesman for housing, said in an email response to questions. He said the government acted because it could not afford to “wait until people are killing each other in gang wars.” Notable things here. It's considered an experiment by the Danish, which shows unusual humility, since it might fail. It is a Social Democrat experiment, which is surprising because I imagine the knee-jerk reaction from the American left will be to descry forcing "non-white" people to do anything against their will. The policy's stated purpose is to avoid much worse outcome down the line. What data showed them that gang wars were coming? And who/ can we use as a control group to see if the Danish government has done the right thing? It brings up an interesting question about assimilation and how much can be or should be demanded of immigrants by the host nation.
- 543rf5 3y ago[flagged]
- martini333 3y agoThis is not new. It has been done many times in Denmark, and it works.
- pjc50 3y ago> "The law mandates that in neighborhoods where at least half of the population is of non-Western origin or descent, and where at least two of the following characteristics exist — low income, low education, high unemployment or a high percentage of residents who have had criminal convictions — the share of social housing needs to be reduced to no more than 40 percent by 2030" A lot of countries have had problems with putting all the social housing in one place and then ignoring it while conditions worsen. Especially in big badly designed tower blocks. But there's no need to tie it to immigration status, and there's especially no need to tie it to ethnicity! If there really is a crime problem in a place, then let that speak for itself. And of course the creation and suppression of ghettoes has a terrible history in Europe. (Interestingly, Denmark managed to evacuate 90% of Danish Jews to neutral Sweden during WW2, far higher than other occupied countries)
- jgwil2 3y agoYes, the fact that the main criterion for demolition is the proportion of residents of "non-Western origin" (i.e. non-white people) is what I find disturbing. If they wanted to make it about, say, proportion of native Danish speakers, I would think that would have a similar effect without blatantly discriminating on race.
- Toutouxc 3y agoIt probably meant "cultural origin", not race, i.e. people coming from countries with different (or undeveloped) value systems and ethics.
- jgwil2 3y agoThe article just says, "non-Western origin or descent," which is a bit ambiguous. I don't know the details, but the use of the word "descent" is concerning: it's an immutable characteristic passed from parents to children, regardless of whether we call it "race" or "cultural origin."
- simongray 3y ago
- 543rf5 3y ago[flagged]
- chimen 3y agoVery good. Look at Sweden nowadays. Trying to integrate people that came to "take over" as opposed to be integrated is never going to work. > At 4%, male migrants aged 15–64 with non-Western backgrounds had twice the conviction rate against the Danish Penal Code in 2018, compared to 2% for Danish men. In a given year, about 13% of all male descendants of non-Western migrants aged 17–24 are convicted against the penal code.[1] > In November 2018, the government announced plans to house failed asylum claimants, criminal foreigners who could not be deported and foreign fighters in the Islamic State on Lindholm (Stege Bugt), an island no permanent residents.[92][93] The scheme was approved by Danish parliament 19 December 2018. The plan was opposed by council leaders in Vordingsborg municipality and merchants in Kalvehave, where the ferry to Lindholm has its port.[1] They are obviously trying to backtrack [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime
- TMWNN 3y ago>Very good. Look at Sweden nowadays. Trying to integrate people that came to "take over" as opposed to be integrated is never going to work. Context for others: Sweden has no language, income, employment, or skills requirement <https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...> for obtaining citizenship. In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden <https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>.
- tiahura 3y agoIt’s a shame that more Western leaders haven’t understood that we are simply trustees of the nations and cultures that our ancestors created for our descendants.
- anthk 3y agoMore like the reverse. We mixed a lot of cultures in the Mediterranean area of Europe, discarding the non-useful crap and keeping the good traits, such as algebra, architectural techniques, medical techniques, hygiene... But some people just want to impose the worst of their cultures to the Western world. At least we god rid (partly) of the idiotic legacy of the Christianism in Western Europe by arranging a new set of humanistic and universal values at the French Revolution, but some people want to destroy these values back.
- rdm_blackhole 3y agoIts' not that they haven't understood it's simply that they don't have to put up with the consequences of their actions. It always amazes me to the see the bleeding hearts politicians on TV welcoming anyone and everyone and telling you that if you have a problem with that, then you are a bigot, a racist, a populist. But they don't live in those neighborhoods where the main language spoken is not the language of the country, where the unemployment rate is 50% and the streets are unsafe because of gang activity and where women are scared to walk alone at night. No, these people live in nice comfortable neighborhoods where the cops actually patrol 24/7, where the average income is in the top 5% of the country and you can come at any time day and night without fearing for your life. That's the problem. Unchecked migration for thee not for me. In France we call these people Bourgeois boheme. They pretend to understand the plight of Joe Blow, are very far left but very high income so they can avoid the worst consequences of their political choices.
- kridsdale3 3y ago> Bourgeois boheme This accurately describes how I feel about college-aged American liberals on social media
- pauldenton 3y ago
- bugglebeetle 3y agoI’m about as far left as they come, but things like this make me proud to be an American, and even more so live in a state with a massive number of immigrants, including from majority Muslim countries, and the world’s 5th largest economy. The bigotry in Europe is just psychotic. You sometimes get a real picture into why they murdered each other for centuries over speaking minor variations of each others languages.
- NoImmatureAdHom 3y agoAs I pointed out elsewhere, it's really quite hard to believe it's bigotry on the basis of skin color or language. The mix of immigrants they have commit violent crimes (robbery, rape, murder) at several multiples of the Danish population. It's resulted in graphs that look like this: https://www.statista.com/statistics/576081/number-of-sexual-crimes-in-denmark/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/576081/number-of-sexual-...
- pjc50 3y agoThere's a direct feedback loop between EU bigotry and US bigotry. They go to each other's conferences and read each other's publications. And the conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel etc radicalize both sides.
- bugglebeetle 3y agoI don’t disagree, but you can go to Los Angeles, where something like 40% of people don’t speak English at home and see there are no actual problems with massive numbers of immigrants and mixing cultures. All the social problems that do exist (e.g. with housing and homelessness) are the result of the rich waging battle against the poor. The food is also a hell of a lot better than Northern Europe and we share it with each others children.
- anthk 3y agoThese issues will change when people fought for his labour rights and not for a culture they weren't part from long ago. They relatives where Hispanics, maybe; but by just watching the 'quality' of translations of some public traffic signs iinto Spanish, as I Spaniard I could say these people are barely Hispanic, they have no bounds to any of the zilions of Hispanic subcultures; and, even worse, they aren't even fluent in their supposed 'own' language. So the best these people could do would be to keep their customs such as the gastronomy and join the Anglosphere without a hitch.
- NoImmatureAdHom 3y agoImportant context that the article is light on is that Denmark (and Sweden, etc. etc.) all have immigrant populations that are considerably more violent than the rest of the population, sometime more than 10x. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Denmark#/media/File:Denmark_migrant_crime_in_2018.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Denmark#/media/... https://www.statista.com/statistics/576081/number-of-sexual-crimes-in-denmark/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/576081/number-of-sexual-...
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoIf Americans emigrated in droves to Denmark they would also fail to integrate, (although they would face less racism from the locals) and they will also prefer to socialize with their own, retain their own American customs and cultural identity and fail to learn Danish. But all of this is irrelevant. Failing to integrate, by this measure does not lead one directly towards the criminal underworld. There are a few steps in between that are being ignored, and this "failed integration" is being used as a red herring.
- rdm_blackhole 3y agoAnd what are those ignored steps?
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoThat's for them to find out. Employment status is probably a big one. I was just on holiday in south eastern Europe in a resort town where the workforce was entirely composed of the same kind of immigrants, and none of these immigrants were "integrated" by this standard. But there was no criminality. Maybe because all of them were gainfully employed and felt like they had a future. That's just one example. My point is, there is a false equivalence being exercised here. Just because somebody is not integrated by whatever arbitrary standard, does not mean that they are prone to engage in criminal activity.
- rdm_blackhole 3y agoI am sorry but I don't buy it. If you don't integrate and don't learn the language and never have any contacts outside your community, how are are you supposed to survive, find a job, find spouse and eventually move out from those neighborhoods? So you either live on welfare or you turn to criminal activities. What else is there?
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoIf you are going to impose impossibly high standards on these people BEFORE they are gainfully employed, you're the problem. They don't need to integrate nor learn the language to do a variety of jobs. Give them a job and a reason to exist and believe they are advancing in life. Then demand that they learn the language. Don't put them in bureaucratic limbo for years, because they aren't "integrated enough". No wonder you end up with problems then.
- ericfrazier 3y agoWhy go through all this effort and expense? Just send them home if they won't assimilate.
- kridsdale3 3y ago"If you aren't going to assimilate why be an immigrant? Why not stay where you're from since that's the only culture you want?" Because where they're from, by and large, was trying to kill them. EDIT: OP reworded his comment as I was replying.
- ericfrazier 3y agoEven more of a reason to assimilate?
- hef19898 3y agoIntegrate, which is a two way street. Ypur the thord xommwnter here using "assimilate" instead of "integrate", that is curious.
- ericfrazier 3y agoWhat does assimilate into mean? to become part of a group, country, society, etc., or to make someone or something become part of a group, country, society, etc.:
- Ajay-p 3y agoI remember at university reading that some local governments avoided creating housing for those on benefits, instead setting aside a percentage of housing blocks for those persons, so that they are integrated with persons who were not on benefits. IIRC the thinking was that concentration of poverty and those in poverty leads to more poverty, but integration showed improved results.
- red-iron-pine 3y agoyeah im guessing this is the point. keep them all in the same area and you get an ethno-ghetto, and concentrates things like crime poverty. spreading it around helps (forces) assimilation, and gets them around people of different ages / statuses / etc. have heard of similar approaches for old folks homes, where they try to integrate them with more diverse communities, different ages, etc. cuz being around young folks and different things keeps them busy and active