5 ms·

Don't think it's easy to reverse engineer these kind of advanced machines?

dist-epoch 3y ago
How many Chinese citizens work for ASML? Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters. Being outside China is not much help, the Chinese are known to perform renditions or to threaten family members living in China. > ASML says ex-China employee misappropriated data relating to its critical chip technology https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/15/critical-chip-firm-asml-says-former-china-employee-misappropriated-data.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/15/critical-chip-firm-asml-says...
- dumb1224 3y ago
  > Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters Could you point out which law? I don't think there is something explicit like that.
  - dist-epoch 3y ago
    > Article 7: All organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts in accordance with law, and shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t... https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-national-intelligence-law/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-na...
    - dumb1224 3y ago
      well there is no mention of active spying, nor obligation. The original text in chinese sounds even more vague. I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge but I think personal obligation is a bit exaggerated.
      - dist-epoch 3y ago
        Law scholars disagree. "Citizen, national security requires you to give us all computer files you have access to regarding X technology. It also requires you to keep quiet about this". > I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge You realize that in China judges do what the government says in national security cases. And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time.
        dumb1224 3y ago
        Which law scholars? I actually have a close friend who is a judge. And what you described is not heard of in his career. > And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time. It is very hard to have a good-faithed discussion if you assert generalisation like this. Do you have any statistics? Any real cases you've personally encountered? I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. At least in my region, what so true. That's just my 2 cents.
        T-A 3y ago
        A random sample by quick googling, date-sorted for your convenience: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-is-being-tracked-and-harassed-in-australia-by-chinese-police/y34x0r7w6 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-i... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china-cracks-down-on-students-who-speak-out https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-china-detained-and-harassed-as-beijing-prepares-for-party-congress https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-... https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-dissidents-in-53-countries-with-its-overseas-police-stations-583846 https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-di... https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-members-of-dissidents/102047 https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-membe... https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detained-in-thailand-accused-of-bomb-threats-/7200022.html https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detaine... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-global-transnational-repression-campaign https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-globa... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-georgetown-09282023111042.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-... https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-return-of-dissident-back-to-china-while-activists-critical-of-mining-projects-face-harassment/ https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-ret...
hashtag-til 3y ago
I think the incentives are very high, so I have no doubt it is possible if the right amount of investment is put to it.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Sanctions generally don't make things impossible, just (very) expensive.
jpgvm 3y ago
Difficult yes. Enough to stop a highly motivated nation state with massive talent pool and economic resources to dedicate to the task? No. Especially not the DUV machines. EUV is a different matter. The design that ASML uses relies on absolutely crazy optics and masks that aren't just stupidly difficult to manufacture but maintain/repair throughput use. I don't expect China to copy their EUV design, more likely they would develop something homegrown. Largely this comes down to the light source which is actually designed/built in San Diego, not the Netherlands. It's a very complex and finicky beast that I don't think would appeal to Chinese sensibilities. More likely I expect them to come up with a cyclotron design or similar which can more easily reach higher power output (critical for lithography) but requires more centralized infrastructure (not a problem for China, but a problem for private companies).
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  Yeah, a cyclotron-fed X-ray Free Electron Laser (XFEL) is a brighter source than what ASML EUV machines use. But XFELs are big (often hundred-meter scale undulators, not to mention the size of the synchrotron) and very expensive. Less of an issue for a highly centralized production system, but not something you can ship to customers around the world.
  - jpgvm 3y ago
    China might be the only place that could build one due to the central planning required. Would be damn cool if they do, guess we'll just have to wait and find out.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
      Well, there are a bunch of such XFELs around (not sure if China has any yet), but they're research, not for production applications. That's how we can know they're such bright sources, how big they tend to be, how expensive they are to build, etc.
dep_b 3y ago
I heard a story a few years ago they actually tried to reverse engineer the machine and only ended up with multi-million dollar machine that refused to work again.

How many Chinese citizens work for ASML? Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters. Being outside China is not much help, the Chinese are known to perform renditions or to threaten family members living in China. > ASML says ex-China employee misappropriated data relating to its critical chip technology https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/15/critical-chip-firm-asml-says-former-china-employee-misappropriated-data.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/15/critical-chip-firm-asml-says...

dumb1224 3y ago
> Under Chinese law every Chinese citizen is obligated to spy for the state in such matters Could you point out which law? I don't think there is something explicit like that.
- dist-epoch 3y ago
  > Article 7: All organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with national intelligence efforts in accordance with law, and shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Law_of_t... https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-national-intelligence-law/ https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-real-danger-of-chinas-na...
  - dumb1224 3y ago
    well there is no mention of active spying, nor obligation. The original text in chinese sounds even more vague. I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge but I think personal obligation is a bit exaggerated.
    - dist-epoch 3y ago
      Law scholars disagree. "Citizen, national security requires you to give us all computer files you have access to regarding X technology. It also requires you to keep quiet about this". > I don't know how it will be interpreted by a judge You realize that in China judges do what the government says in national security cases. And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time.
      - dumb1224 3y ago
        Which law scholars? I actually have a close friend who is a judge. And what you described is not heard of in his career. > And this is just what is written in the law. There is no written law that the police is allowed to harass your family, yet it happens all the time. It is very hard to have a good-faithed discussion if you assert generalisation like this. Do you have any statistics? Any real cases you've personally encountered? I mean I sometimes have to assume my whole life as a chinese person must be in a bubble. At least in my region, what so true. That's just my 2 cents.
        T-A 3y ago
        A random sample by quick googling, date-sorted for your convenience: https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-targets-harassed https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/01/china-families-interpol-... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-is-being-tracked-and-harassed-in-australia-by-chinese-police/y34x0r7w6 https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/this-activist-says-she-i... https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china-cracks-down-on-students-who-speak-out https://www.propublica.org/article/even-on-us-campuses-china... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-china-detained-and-harassed-as-beijing-prepares-for-party-congress https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/14/dissidents-in-... https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-dissidents-in-53-countries-with-its-overseas-police-stations-583846 https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-how-china-targets-di... https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-members-of-dissidents/102047 https://www.ucanews.com/news/hk-police-question-family-membe... https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detained-in-thailand-accused-of-bomb-threats-/7200022.html https://www.voanews.com/a/chinese-dissident-s-family-detaine... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-66337328 https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-global-transnational-repression-campaign https://www.cecc.gov/events/hearings/countering-chinas-globa... https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-georgetown-09282023111042.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/student-associations-... https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-return-of-dissident-back-to-china-while-activists-critical-of-mining-projects-face-harassment/ https://monitor.civicus.org/explore/mongolia-involuntary-ret...

hashtag-til 3y ago

I think the incentives are very high, so I have no doubt it is possible if the right amount of investment is put to it.

The_Colonel 3y ago
Sanctions generally don't make things impossible, just (very) expensive.

jpgvm 3y ago

Difficult yes. Enough to stop a highly motivated nation state with massive talent pool and economic resources to dedicate to the task? No. Especially not the DUV machines. EUV is a different matter. The design that ASML uses relies on absolutely crazy optics and masks that aren't just stupidly difficult to manufacture but maintain/repair throughput use. I don't expect China to copy their EUV design, more likely they would develop something homegrown. Largely this comes down to the light source which is actually designed/built in San Diego, not the Netherlands. It's a very complex and finicky beast that I don't think would appeal to Chinese sensibilities. More likely I expect them to come up with a cyclotron design or similar which can more easily reach higher power output (critical for lithography) but requires more centralized infrastructure (not a problem for China, but a problem for private companies).

SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
Yeah, a cyclotron-fed X-ray Free Electron Laser (XFEL) is a brighter source than what ASML EUV machines use. But XFELs are big (often hundred-meter scale undulators, not to mention the size of the synchrotron) and very expensive. Less of an issue for a highly centralized production system, but not something you can ship to customers around the world.
- jpgvm 3y ago
  China might be the only place that could build one due to the central planning required. Would be damn cool if they do, guess we'll just have to wait and find out.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    Well, there are a bunch of such XFELs around (not sure if China has any yet), but they're research, not for production applications. That's how we can know they're such bright sources, how big they tend to be, how expensive they are to build, etc.

dep_b 3y ago

I heard a story a few years ago they actually tried to reverse engineer the machine and only ended up with multi-million dollar machine that refused to work again.