5 ms·

Google engineers just don’t seem to value back compat in their bones. I’ve read they have tools and processes internally that let them make breaking changes an

Google engineers just don’t seem to value back compat in their bones. I’ve read they have tools and processes internally that let them make breaking changes and globally find / fix callers. That’s cool, but the rest of don’t have that. No one likes getting an email that says “we’ve changed the way X works, you have until Y to change your code or it will break.” Not even if Y is a year from now. A rule that says no breaks ever is probably not optimal either but it’s a big deal and should be treated as such. Maybe require a VP sign off or something. Also: keeping your product in beta for a decade is cute but unconvincing.

renegade-otter 3y ago
Google culture in general seems to be "this is not fun or a very profitable, so we are just going to, like, not do it anymore". Fundamentally it comes from the fact that they don't have to do any of it anyway. Anyone using AdWords knows that it's a money-printing machine. Google is thousands of fresh CS graduates who want to do "cool green-field stuff" but not really the day-to-day grind we are all part of and what we call "software engineering".
- UncleMeat 3y ago
  I think that there are competing cultures, and ultimately only one of them has the power to fire people. I'm currently losing a multi-year long siege to kill a project with significant external visibility almost entirely because of organizational structure. A series of reorgs and new VPs have ended up such that our VP doesn't give a crap about our project and the VP that does doesn't have a great relationship with our VP. My experience is that people really do become proud of the systems that they build and that deleting them is something they avoid. This isn't coming from junior engineers wanting to do green field stuff. This is coming from VPs who swoop in and say "what I care about is this metric and if you aren't pushing on this metric then you are fired." There are aggravating factors. Regulation sometimes means that core infrastructure needs to change out from under you, so the "it is stable and just needs a small amount of ongoing maintenance" doesn't always persist. I think that Google's monorepo also contributes to this. It has a lot of huge benefits but it also means that "keep the old version of library X around" isn't really possible.
  - Brian_K_White 3y ago
    "My experience is that people really do become proud of the systems that they build and that deleting them is something they avoid." Who is still in the same position or team 10, or even 2 years, or even 6 months later, especially in any faang?
    - UncleMeat 3y ago
      I have been on the same team, maintaining the same system for 10 years here at Google. The median tenure on my team is six years.
      - Brian_K_White 3y ago
        That is good to hear. I had gotten an impression of frequent moves required as the only way to advance.
  - DrScientist 3y ago
    I think the other problem with reorgs is that the incoming VP often wants a success they can call their own. It's a bit like lion infanticide when a pride is taken over - the new leaders are not invested in existing projects - they want to give birth to a success of their own and your maintenance of an existing project is competing for resources.
- bitcharmer 3y ago
  > Google is thousands of fresh CS graduates This is exactly my impression judging by the quality of their products and Google's interviewing process.
- Pet_Ant 3y ago
  I'm doing boring enterprise maintenance for a lot less than Google money, maybe I should just apply. "No, I'm not Ivy league or MIT, but I'm great at taking abuse and grinding away thanklessly". Any chance that buys me a pass on not being great at memorizing algorithims?
  - kridsdale3 3y ago
    "I'm not Ivy league or MIT, but I'm great at taking abuse and grinding away thanklessly" This describes me, and they hired me.
  - JonChesterfield 3y ago
    Nope, the whole point of the memorizing algorithms to gain access structure is to show that you're great at grinding away thanklessly. Just saying it isn't enough.
ksplicer 3y ago
This has nothing to do with what Google engineers value and everything to do with what management above them values. At Google you don't get promotions or raises for maintaining products, you get them for launching new products. That's the full story of how you get all these deprecations. Google management has been trying it's harded to kill the company for a long time.
- bradleyjg 3y ago
  Sure, it’s almost always the case that a corporate culture is heavily influenced by the incentives put in place by management. But those incentives and that culture influences what engineers value. That’s how the mechanism works.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
nunez 3y ago
> A rule that says no breaks ever is probably not optimal either but it’s a big deal and should be treated as such. Maybe require a VP sign off or something. Works for Microsoft, though! See also: all of the super crusty VB6 and Win32 apps from 20+ years ago powering a double-digit percentage of everything on the planet

renegade-otter 3y ago

Google culture in general seems to be "this is not fun or a very profitable, so we are just going to, like, not do it anymore". Fundamentally it comes from the fact that they don't have to do any of it anyway. Anyone using AdWords knows that it's a money-printing machine. Google is thousands of fresh CS graduates who want to do "cool green-field stuff" but not really the day-to-day grind we are all part of and what we call "software engineering".

UncleMeat 3y ago
I think that there are competing cultures, and ultimately only one of them has the power to fire people. I'm currently losing a multi-year long siege to kill a project with significant external visibility almost entirely because of organizational structure. A series of reorgs and new VPs have ended up such that our VP doesn't give a crap about our project and the VP that does doesn't have a great relationship with our VP. My experience is that people really do become proud of the systems that they build and that deleting them is something they avoid. This isn't coming from junior engineers wanting to do green field stuff. This is coming from VPs who swoop in and say "what I care about is this metric and if you aren't pushing on this metric then you are fired." There are aggravating factors. Regulation sometimes means that core infrastructure needs to change out from under you, so the "it is stable and just needs a small amount of ongoing maintenance" doesn't always persist. I think that Google's monorepo also contributes to this. It has a lot of huge benefits but it also means that "keep the old version of library X around" isn't really possible.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  "My experience is that people really do become proud of the systems that they build and that deleting them is something they avoid." Who is still in the same position or team 10, or even 2 years, or even 6 months later, especially in any faang?
  - UncleMeat 3y ago
    I have been on the same team, maintaining the same system for 10 years here at Google. The median tenure on my team is six years.
    - Brian_K_White 3y ago
      That is good to hear. I had gotten an impression of frequent moves required as the only way to advance.
- DrScientist 3y ago
  I think the other problem with reorgs is that the incoming VP often wants a success they can call their own. It's a bit like lion infanticide when a pride is taken over - the new leaders are not invested in existing projects - they want to give birth to a success of their own and your maintenance of an existing project is competing for resources.
bitcharmer 3y ago
> Google is thousands of fresh CS graduates This is exactly my impression judging by the quality of their products and Google's interviewing process.
Pet_Ant 3y ago
I'm doing boring enterprise maintenance for a lot less than Google money, maybe I should just apply. "No, I'm not Ivy league or MIT, but I'm great at taking abuse and grinding away thanklessly". Any chance that buys me a pass on not being great at memorizing algorithims?
- kridsdale3 3y ago
  "I'm not Ivy league or MIT, but I'm great at taking abuse and grinding away thanklessly" This describes me, and they hired me.
- JonChesterfield 3y ago
  Nope, the whole point of the memorizing algorithms to gain access structure is to show that you're great at grinding away thanklessly. Just saying it isn't enough.

ksplicer 3y ago

This has nothing to do with what Google engineers value and everything to do with what management above them values. At Google you don't get promotions or raises for maintaining products, you get them for launching new products. That's the full story of how you get all these deprecations. Google management has been trying it's harded to kill the company for a long time.

bradleyjg 3y ago
Sure, it’s almost always the case that a corporate culture is heavily influenced by the incentives put in place by management. But those incentives and that culture influences what engineers value. That’s how the mechanism works.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

nunez 3y ago

> A rule that says no breaks ever is probably not optimal either but it’s a big deal and should be treated as such. Maybe require a VP sign off or something. Works for Microsoft, though! See also: all of the super crusty VB6 and Win32 apps from 20+ years ago powering a double-digit percentage of everything on the planet