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In the words of Ursula Le Guin: "We live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable — but then, so did the divine right of kings" Fundamental social and econom
by lukev 3y ago
In the words of Ursula Le Guin: "We live in capitalism, its power seems inescapable — but then, so did the divine right of kings"
Fundamental social and economic system change can, and has, happened. The fact that we can't yet see exactly what the other side looks like from where we are now is not contraindicative of that fact.
- WalterBright 3y agoLe Guin wrote works of fiction, where anything can work. > Fundamental social and economic system change can, and has, happened. The selfishness and greed of people has not changed at all. Every society that moved towards Marxism became worse off.
- maxbond 3y agoOkay, I'm sorry, but you can't talk about critical thinking and then reject Le Guin's historical observation because she's a fiction author. That's a bridge too far for me to respond to seriously. That's the complete absence of critical thinking, that is a shallow dismissal based on rote categories. We might as well conclude that your views on Marxism aren't valid because you're an engineer rather than a political scientist or historian, or that your views on teaching critical thinking aren't valid because you aren't an educator. Which would make this entire conversation meaningless.
- WalterBright 3y ago> you can't talk about critical thinking and then reject Le Guin's historical observation because she's a fiction author. I do because her left wing theories only work in her imagination. At least Tolkien was honest in calling TLotR a mythology, not a workable system. Isn't it kinda sad that supporters of Marxism regularly bring up novels, instead of historical examples? Of what value is critical thinking when that's the result? My views on Marxism are based on historical fact, not my imagination.
- maxbond 3y agoCandidly, your views on Marxism are ahistorical. By your own admission you define Marxism as either utopianism or criticism of the free market. You're welcome to define words however you wish in your idiolect, but that is not what the historical the intellectual movement called Marxism is. Take this comment for example. Can you tell me what work of fiction has been cited? I'd be surprised if you could, because no one has mentioned one. Someone brought up Le Guin, who offered an observation of history. Le Guin writes fiction, but that doesn't mean everything she remarks on is fictional. With that in mind, ask yourself, have you offered a historical analysis? Is the opinion you've stated based on history? If it didn't come from history, where did it come from? Also, since you seem to be implying you're debating Marxists presently, I can't speak for anyone else but let me make it clear that I'm neither a Marxist nor a Communist, and I'm not arguing in favor of either of these ideas (and I have not at any time in our discussion).
- WalterBright 3y agoLe Guin's most famous novel is "The Left Hand of Darkness" where the society is based on communal cooperation. I've seen her characterized as a leftist. > If it didn't come from history, where did it come from? It comes from history. As I keep repeating, the failure of every effort to implement Marxism. I don't know why this is hard to get across. It doesn't matter what Le Guin thinks, what matters is does it work or not. It does not. If it does work, you ought to be able to find a historical example. I can't find one, and nobody else has pointed one out, either. What does that say about "critical thinkers" who push Marxism? I'd say critical thinking has been an abject failure for them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]