5 ms·

How so?

irrational 3y ago
Like horses in the Americas. There is a narrative that horses were in the Americas, then died off, then were reintroduced by Spanish conquistadors. But, there is sporadic evidence that horses did exist in the Americas the entire time.
- skylurk 3y ago
  Mind sharing a link to that evidence?
  - flybrand 3y ago
    Yes, or a book?
  - margalabargala 3y ago
    A representative example of the sporadic evidence mentioned is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38017332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38017332
    - jtbayly 3y ago
      That, sir, was good fun!
  - chemeng 3y ago
    I was also skeptical, seems there’s a lot more to this story. Not that they didn’t disappear and reappear, but the spread of them isn’t as straightforward as we thought. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/native-americans-spread-horses-through-the-west-earlier-than-thought-180981912/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/native-americans-s...
    - belinder 3y ago
      That article doesn't say they were there the whole time, but that they were (re)introduced a hundred years earlier via mexico
    - margalabargala 3y ago
      That's basically the same claim. This is saying "the europeans brought them, and they spread around faster than we thought". Which is interesting and fine, but that's a far cry from the above claim of "actually, that ten thousand year period where they appeared to be extinct never happened and they were around the whole time".
- phowat 3y ago
  Honest question as I have no horse on this race (pun intended) and you picqued my curiosity. How the hell can the pre existence of horses be politicized?
  - zo1 3y ago
    I guess it adds weight to the whole "natives own this land and colonizers didn't bring anything to this land", notably as push back against the other side which is "natives are backwards and this land wasn't all that useful until we brought technology (horses)." Both caricatures ofc. But then again, they have to be because in the political arena details and facts don't matter at the end of the day as it's all about marketing.
  - irrational 3y ago
    We had a Mayan guide when we were in the Yucatan on vacation. He spent quite a bit of time pointing out proofs (as the native Mayans see them) of horses being around the entire time. He claimed to have a college degree in archaeology, but went on a rant about non-Mayan archealogists and their bias against native Mayans. Basically, he saw the disbelief against horses being around the whole time as racially motivated. Those dumb mayans don't know what they are talking about. I'm trying now to remember the proofs he was showing, but at the time I remember being pretty surprised since it seemed cut and dry.
    - biorach 3y ago
      > I'm trying now to remember the proofs he was showing I don't want to sound mean, but without any links to anything, any mentions of books, papers, even mentions of archaeological finds in local newspapers... what you're saying is just a story about someone you met who made some outlandish claims.
      - ithkuil 3y ago
        Yes. My takeaway from that account wasn't that there is necessary a hidden truth, but that some people do believe there is one and such belief correlates with their identity politics. The fact that the argument appears to be cut and dry is also testament to the fact that it has been rehearsed many times and shared within that identity community
- rozab 3y ago
  If this were true, surely it would be impossible to miss the genetic markers in modern American horses.
  - farnsworth 3y ago
    They might not have interbred- dogs existed in the Americas but left very little genetic mark. The chihuahua is a European breed that was bred to look like a dog that existed in Mexico.
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago
  > There is a narrative that horses were in the Americas, then died off They died off (along with mammoths and lots of other large mammals) around the same time as humans arrived in the Americas and hunted them to extinction. https://news.ucsb.edu/2001/011478/humans-hunted-mammals-extinction-north-america https://news.ucsb.edu/2001/011478/humans-hunted-mammals-exti...

How so?

Like horses in the Americas. There is a narrative that horses were in the Americas, then died off, then were reintroduced by Spanish conquistadors. But, there is sporadic evidence that horses did exist in the Americas the entire time.

skylurk 3y ago
Mind sharing a link to that evidence?
- flybrand 3y ago
  Yes, or a book?
- margalabargala 3y ago
  A representative example of the sporadic evidence mentioned is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38017332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38017332
  - jtbayly 3y ago
    That, sir, was good fun!
- chemeng 3y ago
  I was also skeptical, seems there’s a lot more to this story. Not that they didn’t disappear and reappear, but the spread of them isn’t as straightforward as we thought. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/native-americans-spread-horses-through-the-west-earlier-than-thought-180981912/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/native-americans-s...
  - belinder 3y ago
    That article doesn't say they were there the whole time, but that they were (re)introduced a hundred years earlier via mexico
  - margalabargala 3y ago
    That's basically the same claim. This is saying "the europeans brought them, and they spread around faster than we thought". Which is interesting and fine, but that's a far cry from the above claim of "actually, that ten thousand year period where they appeared to be extinct never happened and they were around the whole time".
phowat 3y ago
Honest question as I have no horse on this race (pun intended) and you picqued my curiosity. How the hell can the pre existence of horses be politicized?
- zo1 3y ago
  I guess it adds weight to the whole "natives own this land and colonizers didn't bring anything to this land", notably as push back against the other side which is "natives are backwards and this land wasn't all that useful until we brought technology (horses)." Both caricatures ofc. But then again, they have to be because in the political arena details and facts don't matter at the end of the day as it's all about marketing.
- irrational 3y ago
  We had a Mayan guide when we were in the Yucatan on vacation. He spent quite a bit of time pointing out proofs (as the native Mayans see them) of horses being around the entire time. He claimed to have a college degree in archaeology, but went on a rant about non-Mayan archealogists and their bias against native Mayans. Basically, he saw the disbelief against horses being around the whole time as racially motivated. Those dumb mayans don't know what they are talking about. I'm trying now to remember the proofs he was showing, but at the time I remember being pretty surprised since it seemed cut and dry.
  - biorach 3y ago
    > I'm trying now to remember the proofs he was showing I don't want to sound mean, but without any links to anything, any mentions of books, papers, even mentions of archaeological finds in local newspapers... what you're saying is just a story about someone you met who made some outlandish claims.
    - ithkuil 3y ago
      Yes. My takeaway from that account wasn't that there is necessary a hidden truth, but that some people do believe there is one and such belief correlates with their identity politics. The fact that the argument appears to be cut and dry is also testament to the fact that it has been rehearsed many times and shared within that identity community
rozab 3y ago
If this were true, surely it would be impossible to miss the genetic markers in modern American horses.
- farnsworth 3y ago
  They might not have interbred- dogs existed in the Americas but left very little genetic mark. The chihuahua is a European breed that was bred to look like a dog that existed in Mexico.
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
> There is a narrative that horses were in the Americas, then died off They died off (along with mammoths and lots of other large mammals) around the same time as humans arrived in the Americas and hunted them to extinction. https://news.ucsb.edu/2001/011478/humans-hunted-mammals-extinction-north-america https://news.ucsb.edu/2001/011478/humans-hunted-mammals-exti...