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There’s progress because there’s investment. If dozens of billions were poured into public transport, it would improve dramatically. How can I be so so sure? B

by bertil 3y ago

There’s progress because there’s investment. If dozens of billions were poured into public transport, it would improve dramatically. How can I be so so sure? Because that’s what a lot of countries have done, China first among many, and their public transport network has dramatically improved. The main issue is how much the private car industry avoids having to pay for the astounding externalities they generate: pollution, noise, road violence, global warming, microplastic, urban disruption… It’s orders of magnitude more expensive for people around drivers than for drivers.

throwaway2037 3y ago
It is strange that you chose China! Have you seen how many kilometers of urban freeways they built in the last 30 years? It is crazy. Look at the Beijing ring roads -- a traffic clogged hell space.
- bertil 3y ago
  No, but I have you seen the Beijing metro: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Beijing+metro https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Beijing+metro and it sounds like it got a lot better than car transport during the same period.
- wffurr 3y ago
  China has built out both while the US has let both crumble. The Netherlands also has both amazing public transit and amazing highways. The US would rather argue over slashing the already meager social safety net and buy some more fighter jets, nuclear aircraft carriers, and modernize the obsolete ICBM force than invest in infrastructure these days.
kortilla 3y ago
Dozens of billions are being poured in. That’s we got the California high speed rail connecting nowhere to nothing and BART just barely making it to San Jose. None of that still fixes the last mile problem of suburbia, and buses aren’t a solution. They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable.
- nicoburns 3y ago
  Still significantly fewer billions than are being invested in road infrastructure.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  > They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable. Uh, make them more frequent, more comfortable and faster? I spend the last 15 minutes of my commute on a bus. Driving vs. bus + train = 3 minutes. I can drive, probably get stuck in traffic, get pissed at angry drivers ... or just chill on a bus and train for 45 minutes. The only time it is worth driving is when I need to-the-minute exactness of when to arrive, which is rarely ever. IOW, I show up 10 minutes early to work (and also leave 10 minutes early) to be on the public transportation schedule. Trains come every 10 minutes, busses every 15. I've never had any issues. Sure, I walk a whole 300 meters (1000ft) from the bus to my house, and again from the bus to work. But that is probably good for me since I don't get enough exercise as it is.
  - hyperman1 3y ago
    Uncomfortable is harder to fix than it looks. Chairs in our bus stops are designed to be uncomfy to make sure people don't sleep in them, especially not when laying down. There were too many drunk people sleeping in them, making things messy. The bus company gave up and decided low-comfort chairs were better than puke-filled chairs.
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      The bus stops around here don't even have seats usually. However, they run every 15 minutes on weekdays, and every 30 minutes on weekends. So, you usually just walk or bike there a few minutes before the bus shows up. You maybe wait 3 minutes for the bus. Google Maps is awesome for knowing exactly when the bus will show up too.
  - xnx 3y ago
    > Uh, make them more frequent, more comfortable and faster? This is a spot-on description of self-driving cars.
rcxdude 3y ago
Public transport infrastructure at a national scale is not a dozens of billions project, it's a hundreds to thousands of billions project. The current investment in Waymo is less than the investment in the (still underfunded) NYC metro alone
- withinboredom 3y ago
  Didn't they do that to themselves? IIRC, it's like that because (A), they were the first to do underground rail so lots of things were done "wrong" (with what we know today), thus requiring lots of money to fix it. And, (B), any changes they make (even small ones) require redoing significant infrastructure because of (A).
decafninja 3y ago
Pour out gazillions of money into American public transit and it won’t get you far. The reason why China and other Asian nations have amazing public transit isn’t financial or technical. It’s cultural and social. And by that, I don’t mean anything to do with cars - I’m referring to just a public willingness (or enforcement) to enshre nice public things stay nice, which is often lacking in the US.

by bertil 3y ago

throwaway2037 3y ago

It is strange that you chose China! Have you seen how many kilometers of urban freeways they built in the last 30 years? It is crazy. Look at the Beijing ring roads -- a traffic clogged hell space.

bertil 3y ago
No, but I have you seen the Beijing metro: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Beijing+metro https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Beijing+metro and it sounds like it got a lot better than car transport during the same period.
wffurr 3y ago
China has built out both while the US has let both crumble. The Netherlands also has both amazing public transit and amazing highways. The US would rather argue over slashing the already meager social safety net and buy some more fighter jets, nuclear aircraft carriers, and modernize the obsolete ICBM force than invest in infrastructure these days.

kortilla 3y ago

Dozens of billions are being poured in. That’s we got the California high speed rail connecting nowhere to nothing and BART just barely making it to San Jose. None of that still fixes the last mile problem of suburbia, and buses aren’t a solution. They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable.

nicoburns 3y ago
Still significantly fewer billions than are being invested in road infrastructure.
withinboredom 3y ago
> They are slow, too infrequent, and generally uncomfortable. Uh, make them more frequent, more comfortable and faster? I spend the last 15 minutes of my commute on a bus. Driving vs. bus + train = 3 minutes. I can drive, probably get stuck in traffic, get pissed at angry drivers ... or just chill on a bus and train for 45 minutes. The only time it is worth driving is when I need to-the-minute exactness of when to arrive, which is rarely ever. IOW, I show up 10 minutes early to work (and also leave 10 minutes early) to be on the public transportation schedule. Trains come every 10 minutes, busses every 15. I've never had any issues. Sure, I walk a whole 300 meters (1000ft) from the bus to my house, and again from the bus to work. But that is probably good for me since I don't get enough exercise as it is.
- hyperman1 3y ago
  Uncomfortable is harder to fix than it looks. Chairs in our bus stops are designed to be uncomfy to make sure people don't sleep in them, especially not when laying down. There were too many drunk people sleeping in them, making things messy. The bus company gave up and decided low-comfort chairs were better than puke-filled chairs.
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    The bus stops around here don't even have seats usually. However, they run every 15 minutes on weekdays, and every 30 minutes on weekends. So, you usually just walk or bike there a few minutes before the bus shows up. You maybe wait 3 minutes for the bus. Google Maps is awesome for knowing exactly when the bus will show up too.
- xnx 3y ago
  > Uh, make them more frequent, more comfortable and faster? This is a spot-on description of self-driving cars.

rcxdude 3y ago

Public transport infrastructure at a national scale is not a dozens of billions project, it's a hundreds to thousands of billions project. The current investment in Waymo is less than the investment in the (still underfunded) NYC metro alone

withinboredom 3y ago
Didn't they do that to themselves? IIRC, it's like that because (A), they were the first to do underground rail so lots of things were done "wrong" (with what we know today), thus requiring lots of money to fix it. And, (B), any changes they make (even small ones) require redoing significant infrastructure because of (A).

decafninja 3y ago

Pour out gazillions of money into American public transit and it won’t get you far. The reason why China and other Asian nations have amazing public transit isn’t financial or technical. It’s cultural and social. And by that, I don’t mean anything to do with cars - I’m referring to just a public willingness (or enforcement) to enshre nice public things stay nice, which is often lacking in the US.