4 ms·

My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in general.

My actionable suggestions are to distance the event itself from the open bar that occurs afterwards. I definitely don't think people shouldn't drink in general. I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified - I was saying it contributes to a hostile environment for lots of people.

wlll 15y ago
"I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified" Lighten up.
ahoyhere 15y ago
Ah, so, because you feel excluded, you believe that conferences should be remade in a way that makes you feel included. And who will that cause to feel excluded? Not to mention, other than your colorful editorializations of what you think people mean ("Y U NO DRINK?" Y U NO BACK UP YOUR FAUX INTERNAL MONOLOGUES?), I don't see where's this hostile environment exactly? Because I haven't seen or heard of anything hostile at conf after-parties and I've spoken at 20 tech conferences and attended more. Confs from all over the "ego gamut" - from old school PHP confs, PERL confs, and OSCON to LessConf and JSConf. And, let it be known, I'm a woman. Who no longer drinks at conference after parties. So you figure if anyone's gonna have a ring-side seat to obnoxiousness, it'd be me.
- lsmith77 15y ago
  I think its legitimate to note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences anymore. Now if organizers will act on that is their own decision. But if nobody ever speaks up, then it implies that everyone is happy with things are going.
  - ahoyhere 15y ago
    I absolutely agree with you! But "note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences any more" is not what this essay did. He systematically painted everyone involved as a bastard, simply because they like doing something he doesn't. He didn't even give any examples of people pressuring him to drink or treating him weirdly for not drinking… probably because there weren't any. There's a huge gulf between "This turns me off, here's why" and quoting your wife, who is not involved in the situation, calling programmers terrible, as bad as bankers, based on your completely editorialized and unfounded comments about programmers who said something positive about drinking.
tmarthal 15y ago
If you've ever been to a conference or a talk where there was no open bar (or even food) scheduled afterwards, everyone just leaves. This is more of an academic thing, so YMMV.

wlll 15y ago

"I also don't think I was comparing it to creating a hostile environment where women feel objectified" Lighten up.

ahoyhere 15y ago

Ah, so, because you feel excluded, you believe that conferences should be remade in a way that makes you feel included. And who will that cause to feel excluded? Not to mention, other than your colorful editorializations of what you think people mean ("Y U NO DRINK?" Y U NO BACK UP YOUR FAUX INTERNAL MONOLOGUES?), I don't see where's this hostile environment exactly? Because I haven't seen or heard of anything hostile at conf after-parties and I've spoken at 20 tech conferences and attended more. Confs from all over the "ego gamut" - from old school PHP confs, PERL confs, and OSCON to LessConf and JSConf. And, let it be known, I'm a woman. Who no longer drinks at conference after parties. So you figure if anyone's gonna have a ring-side seat to obnoxiousness, it'd be me.

lsmith77 15y ago
I think its legitimate to note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences anymore. Now if organizers will act on that is their own decision. But if nobody ever speaks up, then it implies that everyone is happy with things are going.
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  I absolutely agree with you! But "note why someone doesn't want to go to conferences any more" is not what this essay did. He systematically painted everyone involved as a bastard, simply because they like doing something he doesn't. He didn't even give any examples of people pressuring him to drink or treating him weirdly for not drinking… probably because there weren't any. There's a huge gulf between "This turns me off, here's why" and quoting your wife, who is not involved in the situation, calling programmers terrible, as bad as bankers, based on your completely editorialized and unfounded comments about programmers who said something positive about drinking.

tmarthal 15y ago

If you've ever been to a conference or a talk where there was no open bar (or even food) scheduled afterwards, everyone just leaves. This is more of an academic thing, so YMMV.