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AFAICT, the West Bank could be called "an occupied territory", but Gaza definitely cannot. I don't know why people keep repeating this: Israel pulled out of Ga

AFAICT, the West Bank could be called "an occupied territory", but Gaza definitely cannot. I don't know why people keep repeating this: Israel pulled out of Gaza 17 years ago and let it govern itself. A place can't be "occupied" when you don't have soldiers there and you're not administering the place.

hef19898 3y ago
How much self government do you really have when you are under embargoe by all neighbouring states, are not recognized as sovereign nation and depend dor basix essentials (water, fuel...) on the former occupier? It is an occupation by all measures but name.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  How is it Israel's fault that they're embargoed by other neighboring states? And what's been keeping all the other states from supplying those basic essentials? Last I heard, they got a lot of humanitarian supplies from many other countries worldwide, even as far away as Japan. AFAICT, Israel would rather just not deal with them at all. Countries shouldn't be forced to annex their neighbors and administer them. Didn't they even try to get Egypt to take Gaza back, and Egypt refused? I'm sorry, this doesn't fit the definition of "occupation" at all.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Gaza is described, by Amnesty International and the Norwegian Refugee Council, as the world largest open air prison. It depends for all life necessities on Israel and has all of two neighbours, Israel and Egypt. The former being also the former occupier which refuses to lift the embargoe and prevents Gazans from participating in normal life in Israel, incl. working there. All Israel did to technically not make it an occupation is to withdraw troops, getting rid of that cost and risk. They did not so get rid of accountability and responsibility. That situation is the perfect breeding ground for extremism. Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular, regardless of the excuses Israel finds.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      Why should they be obligated to allow Gazans to participate in normal life in Israel? They're de-facto two separate countries. Why isn't Egypt getting the same criticism? They could do the same, but they don't. And there are many other Arab nations in the region that, while not directly bordering Gaza, could help out if they wanted. Iran does (though not Arab), but they provide them with weapons. Before the attack, Israel was issuing work permits to Gazans to let them work and earn badly-needed money in Israel; so much for that. I can see why Israel doesn't want Gazans participating in normal life there: they keep shooting rockets at them. And after the latest atrocity, they'll probably never entertain the idea of good relations with them. Is Korea an "apartheid state" because North and South Korea refuse to let each other's citizens "participate in normal life" on the other side of the DMZ? >Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular It seems like the reverse to me: their actions in the West Bank continue to be wrong and cause problems (illegal settlements). But I don't see how they've done anything wrong in Gaza in 17 years: they simply don't want that group of people in their country, and they have that right. Also, why is it that people like you never criticize Egypt for not taking in the Gazans? There's really nothing stopping Egypt from annexing Gaza.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Egypt isn't getting the same crticism because: a) they never occupied Gaza to begin with b) they have yet to bomb Gaza Egypt gets the same criticism when it comes to the embargoe so. But you know who is stopping Egypt from annexing (interesting choice of words, by the way) Gaza? Israel. And you actually have not the slightest idea what apartheid is and how it works.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        a) Egypt used to own Gaza (they lost it in a war they started, along with a big chunk of Sinai, which was later returned in a peace deal) b) Gaza doesn't shoot rockets into Egypt regularly, so of course they don't bomb them c) I've never seen it d) Last I heard, Israel tried to get Egypt to take Gaza back. How is Israel preventing Egypt from taking them? I do know what apartheid is: it's what happened in South Africa, when two groups of people lived in the very same place (i.e., in the same towns and cities) and were treated differently by the state. It's just like how Black people were treated in the US during the Jim Crow era. What's happening with Gaza is nothing like this.
  - woooooo 3y ago
    The only other neighboring state is Egypt and they get billions of dollars a year from the US as a condition of their peace with Israel. Between that and the blockade of their coast, they're 100% sealed off from any trade, fishing or immigration that Israel doesn't choose to allow. Maybe "occupation" isn't the right word but they don't get to act like an independent state.
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      I'm not arguing that Gaza has been occupied, but was there anything stopping from leaving by sea, besides access to boats and not having recognized passports?
      - woooooo 3y ago
        Yes, there's a blockade administered by Israel for security reasons. They can't even fish their exclusive economic zone.
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hef19898 3y ago

How much self government do you really have when you are under embargoe by all neighbouring states, are not recognized as sovereign nation and depend dor basix essentials (water, fuel...) on the former occupier? It is an occupation by all measures but name.

shiroiuma 3y ago
How is it Israel's fault that they're embargoed by other neighboring states? And what's been keeping all the other states from supplying those basic essentials? Last I heard, they got a lot of humanitarian supplies from many other countries worldwide, even as far away as Japan. AFAICT, Israel would rather just not deal with them at all. Countries shouldn't be forced to annex their neighbors and administer them. Didn't they even try to get Egypt to take Gaza back, and Egypt refused? I'm sorry, this doesn't fit the definition of "occupation" at all.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Gaza is described, by Amnesty International and the Norwegian Refugee Council, as the world largest open air prison. It depends for all life necessities on Israel and has all of two neighbours, Israel and Egypt. The former being also the former occupier which refuses to lift the embargoe and prevents Gazans from participating in normal life in Israel, incl. working there. All Israel did to technically not make it an occupation is to withdraw troops, getting rid of that cost and risk. They did not so get rid of accountability and responsibility. That situation is the perfect breeding ground for extremism. Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular, regardless of the excuses Israel finds.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    Why should they be obligated to allow Gazans to participate in normal life in Israel? They're de-facto two separate countries. Why isn't Egypt getting the same criticism? They could do the same, but they don't. And there are many other Arab nations in the region that, while not directly bordering Gaza, could help out if they wanted. Iran does (though not Arab), but they provide them with weapons. Before the attack, Israel was issuing work permits to Gazans to let them work and earn badly-needed money in Israel; so much for that. I can see why Israel doesn't want Gazans participating in normal life there: they keep shooting rockets at them. And after the latest atrocity, they'll probably never entertain the idea of good relations with them. Is Korea an "apartheid state" because North and South Korea refuse to let each other's citizens "participate in normal life" on the other side of the DMZ? >Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular It seems like the reverse to me: their actions in the West Bank continue to be wrong and cause problems (illegal settlements). But I don't see how they've done anything wrong in Gaza in 17 years: they simply don't want that group of people in their country, and they have that right. Also, why is it that people like you never criticize Egypt for not taking in the Gazans? There's really nothing stopping Egypt from annexing Gaza.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Egypt isn't getting the same crticism because: a) they never occupied Gaza to begin with b) they have yet to bomb Gaza Egypt gets the same criticism when it comes to the embargoe so. But you know who is stopping Egypt from annexing (interesting choice of words, by the way) Gaza? Israel. And you actually have not the slightest idea what apartheid is and how it works.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        a) Egypt used to own Gaza (they lost it in a war they started, along with a big chunk of Sinai, which was later returned in a peace deal) b) Gaza doesn't shoot rockets into Egypt regularly, so of course they don't bomb them c) I've never seen it d) Last I heard, Israel tried to get Egypt to take Gaza back. How is Israel preventing Egypt from taking them? I do know what apartheid is: it's what happened in South Africa, when two groups of people lived in the very same place (i.e., in the same towns and cities) and were treated differently by the state. It's just like how Black people were treated in the US during the Jim Crow era. What's happening with Gaza is nothing like this.
- woooooo 3y ago
  The only other neighboring state is Egypt and they get billions of dollars a year from the US as a condition of their peace with Israel. Between that and the blockade of their coast, they're 100% sealed off from any trade, fishing or immigration that Israel doesn't choose to allow. Maybe "occupation" isn't the right word but they don't get to act like an independent state.
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    I'm not arguing that Gaza has been occupied, but was there anything stopping from leaving by sea, besides access to boats and not having recognized passports?
    - woooooo 3y ago
      Yes, there's a blockade administered by Israel for security reasons. They can't even fish their exclusive economic zone.

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