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>Which makes the name a bit of a misnomer - Judas knew what he was doing. Judas's story is a big point in supporting my atheism , like you had a dude following

>Which makes the name a bit of a misnomer - Judas knew what he was doing. Judas's story is a big point in supporting my atheism , like you had a dude following a God for years, witnessing extreme miracles and still the guy had doubts that the person was a God and at the same time this Gods would want me to believe based only on that old,censored book that contradicts itself with reality and morality 100 times. I would have censored this story too if I was there.

thinkingemote 3y ago
One might say that the existence of a doubter or rejector lends the story authenticity. After all we have doubters and people who betray for money today in all walks of life. What's even more noteworthy about miracles is the report that some of those who had the miracle applied to, who were healed even some of them didn't believe or even say thanks! The point of the miracle maybe was not really to make people believe... it's a mystery to me.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  >> Judas's story is a big point in supporting my atheism , > One might say that the existence of a doubter or rejector lends the story authenticity. The story? Certainly! Evidence of that specific god? Not at all (it's actually the opposite). Let me put it this way: You get told a story about how someone, $LEADER, had millions of people following his proposal to get rich, hanging on his every word, believing his every utterance, because he claimed to have the people's interest at heart. Believable? Maybe. Then you get told that one guy from $LEADER's inner circle, who saw every thing that $LEADER did, and heard everything that $LEADER said, stopped believing that $LEADER was, in actual fact, capable of doing what he said he could do. Believable? Sure, much more than before. But .. that still doesn't provide any evidence that $LEADER was, in fact, who he claimed to be, nor that what he claimed was true, nor that he believed what he claimed to be true. In fact, it's just the opposite - we now have more reason to believe the story, but disbelieve the claims of $LEADER. Replace $LEADER with SBF and the context with cryptocurrencies.
- simion314 3y ago
  >One might say that the existence of a doubter or rejector lends the story authenticity. Not for me, if someone that was in the inner circle and witness so much did not believe then expecting me to believe this stories is too much. Anyway other issue I have are the contradictions with the reality and that the God morality is incompatible with my morality so even if he existed 100% I would not worship him.
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    Your point about morality reminds me of Stephen Fry's attitude (which I share) https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/feb/01/stephen-fry-god-evil-maniac-irish-tv https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/feb/01/stephen-fry-... >In his imaginary conversation with God, Fry says he would tell him: “How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It’s not right. >“It’s utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?” >Pressed by Byrne over how he would react if he was locked outside the pearly gates, Fry says: “I would say: ‘bone cancer in children? What’s that about?’ >“Because the God who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac. Totally selfish. We have to spend our life on our knees thanking him?! What kind of god would do that?”
boomboomsubban 3y ago
If you believe all the miracles are true, you'd see Satan entering Judas to tempt him as kind of a big deal. The kind of thing a normal man couldn't really overcome.
- simion314 3y ago
  >If you believe all the miracles are true, you'd see Satan entering Judas to tempt him as kind of a big deal. The kind of thing a normal man couldn't really overcome. So Judas was setup by God? Give him a test that he will fail? I also hate the story where God allows Satan to kill some extremly good person children to test him and later to reward him the "good" God gives the man other children( f that God, he kills your children, you pass the test and he is so heartless or impotent to restore your children - an average human would not be such cruel)
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    It's almost as if the whole thing is just stories based on the knowledge and values of the vocal population at the time - women and children being property, mixing crops or fabric being an offense, pigs being off-limits because the parasites killed (depending on your local variation of abrahamism), etc. My "favorite" part of this is the section of the Old Testament/Torah about "sexual immorality" - if a man violates an unbetrothed woman, the punishment is a fee to the father and marriage to the poor girl. If betrothed, both man and woman is stoned to death (unless it was outside the city), as the woman being guilty for not screaming loud enough to get others to stop the act. Oh, and the reason you shouldn't take your fathers wife is to not "uncover your fathers nakedness" - nothing to do with the woman itself. (Deutoronomy) The thing reads like a bad joke.
  - rhplus 3y ago
    Like many distinctive parts of the Gospels, the Judas betrayal is included in the story because it lends credence to the idea that Jesus is fulfilling the Hebrew Messianic prophecies from David et al.
  - bregma 3y ago
    The Judas story marks the biblical transition from the Bad Drunk god that was violent, arbitrary, and demanding of human sacrifice (eg. Isaac, Jesus) into the Feudal Manor Lord god that bestowed the divine right of kings. Many a Roman empoeror or medieval European king gained a throne through the betrayal and sacrifice of others following that model and it was justifiable because it had divine precedent.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
I'm also atheist, but I don't have a problem with the Judas story. Firstly, I don't think that the miracles happened as depicted, so a real-life Judas may have thought "I bet he switched the wine and water flasks" or "I know there's just submerged rocks under that water". Alternatively, if he truly believed in Jesus as a god, then he might think "how could they kill a god?" and would want the silver as he'd expect it to be funny when the Romans couldn't kill him.
- simion314 3y ago
  I mean miracles like reviving a person that was dead for days, curing blind people, extremely ill people. Like they were togheter for years. What chances are to convince me that those miracles were real if someone that was there and seen them with his eyes had doubts?
  - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
    It's unlikely that miracles happened as described in biblical texts due to the length of time between the events and the recording of them. I'd also expect people to exaggerate or even fabricate stories to boost other narratives, so there's a whole bunch of uncertainty surrounding them. I can imagine Judas hearing someone recounting a miracle and he'd be shaking his head and thinking "I was there, that's not what happened at all".
    - simion314 3y ago
      So what is your point? Judas story might be real but the miracles were not real, and Jesus was a regular man? I honestly don't care if 1% or 5% of the text is real anyway.
      - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
        My point is that out of all the inconsistencies and bizarreness of various bits of the bible, I find the Judas story itself to be plausible and I don't have a problem with it. I don't think the miracles happened as described and most likely have mundane explanations for them (c.f. magic tricks where many audience members can believe in disappearing elephants), but it's likely that Jesus did exist as there's good evidence that he existed as a historical figure (e.g. evidence of his brother's grave).
jl6 3y ago
I'm sure I read a theory somewhere that Judas was actually the true savior. We are told Jesus suffered for our sins, but his suffering was momentary, whereas Judas's suffering in hell is infinite, without being compensated by any posthumous veneration (quite the opposite - eternal vilification). Jesus's execution was just a sideshow by comparison - a distraction from the true sacrifice.
- probably_wrong 3y ago
  I think you are referring to "Three versions of Judas" by Jorge Luis Borges. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Versions_of_Judas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Versions_of_Judas
  - jl6 3y ago
    That is exactly it, thank you!
probably_wrong 3y ago
> you had a dude following a God for years, witnessing extreme miracles and still the guy had doubts The COVID years have inoculated me against that line of thinking (pun intended). If people would deny that the bodies piling up in hospitals are conclusive evidence of something more than "just a flu" then I can totally imagine an individual seeing a miracle and arguing "dunno, maybe he was just a little dead". And I've definitely seen people take money to argue in favor of policies they know to be false, harmful, or both.
- jstanley 3y ago
  The problem is that the people you're trying to convince do not have firsthand experience of bodies piling up in hospitals.
  - veddox 3y ago
    Well, some of them did. There were a surprising number of doctors and other health-care workers among the Covid/vaccine-sceptics.
veddox 3y ago
The New Testament is pretty open about the fact that what Jesus claimed can be pretty hard to believe. The other disciples doubted Jesus too for a very long time. Yet eventually, what they heard and experienced convinced them enough that they preferred to be put to death rather than deny its truth. What makes you think Judas is more trustworthy than them? (In fact, the Bible's willingness to talk about the weaknesses of its protagonists makes it all the more believable to me. If the early church leaders had "censored" the story to fit their own interests, why did they leave in all that embarrassing stuff about themselves?)

thinkingemote 3y ago

One might say that the existence of a doubter or rejector lends the story authenticity. After all we have doubters and people who betray for money today in all walks of life. What's even more noteworthy about miracles is the report that some of those who had the miracle applied to, who were healed even some of them didn't believe or even say thanks! The point of the miracle maybe was not really to make people believe... it's a mystery to me.

lelanthran 3y ago
>> Judas's story is a big point in supporting my atheism , > One might say that the existence of a doubter or rejector lends the story authenticity. The story? Certainly! Evidence of that specific god? Not at all (it's actually the opposite). Let me put it this way: You get told a story about how someone, $LEADER, had millions of people following his proposal to get rich, hanging on his every word, believing his every utterance, because he claimed to have the people's interest at heart. Believable? Maybe. Then you get told that one guy from $LEADER's inner circle, who saw every thing that $LEADER did, and heard everything that $LEADER said, stopped believing that $LEADER was, in actual fact, capable of doing what he said he could do. Believable? Sure, much more than before. But .. that still doesn't provide any evidence that $LEADER was, in fact, who he claimed to be, nor that what he claimed was true, nor that he believed what he claimed to be true. In fact, it's just the opposite - we now have more reason to believe the story, but disbelieve the claims of $LEADER. Replace $LEADER with SBF and the context with cryptocurrencies.
simion314 3y ago
>One might say that the existence of a doubter or rejector lends the story authenticity. Not for me, if someone that was in the inner circle and witness so much did not believe then expecting me to believe this stories is too much. Anyway other issue I have are the contradictions with the reality and that the God morality is incompatible with my morality so even if he existed 100% I would not worship him.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  Your point about morality reminds me of Stephen Fry's attitude (which I share) https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/feb/01/stephen-fry-god-evil-maniac-irish-tv https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/feb/01/stephen-fry-... >In his imaginary conversation with God, Fry says he would tell him: “How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It’s not right. >“It’s utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain?” >Pressed by Byrne over how he would react if he was locked outside the pearly gates, Fry says: “I would say: ‘bone cancer in children? What’s that about?’ >“Because the God who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a maniac, utter maniac. Totally selfish. We have to spend our life on our knees thanking him?! What kind of god would do that?”

boomboomsubban 3y ago

If you believe all the miracles are true, you'd see Satan entering Judas to tempt him as kind of a big deal. The kind of thing a normal man couldn't really overcome.

simion314 3y ago
>If you believe all the miracles are true, you'd see Satan entering Judas to tempt him as kind of a big deal. The kind of thing a normal man couldn't really overcome. So Judas was setup by God? Give him a test that he will fail? I also hate the story where God allows Satan to kill some extremly good person children to test him and later to reward him the "good" God gives the man other children( f that God, he kills your children, you pass the test and he is so heartless or impotent to restore your children - an average human would not be such cruel)
- arghwhat 3y ago
  It's almost as if the whole thing is just stories based on the knowledge and values of the vocal population at the time - women and children being property, mixing crops or fabric being an offense, pigs being off-limits because the parasites killed (depending on your local variation of abrahamism), etc. My "favorite" part of this is the section of the Old Testament/Torah about "sexual immorality" - if a man violates an unbetrothed woman, the punishment is a fee to the father and marriage to the poor girl. If betrothed, both man and woman is stoned to death (unless it was outside the city), as the woman being guilty for not screaming loud enough to get others to stop the act. Oh, and the reason you shouldn't take your fathers wife is to not "uncover your fathers nakedness" - nothing to do with the woman itself. (Deutoronomy) The thing reads like a bad joke.
- rhplus 3y ago
  Like many distinctive parts of the Gospels, the Judas betrayal is included in the story because it lends credence to the idea that Jesus is fulfilling the Hebrew Messianic prophecies from David et al.
- bregma 3y ago
  The Judas story marks the biblical transition from the Bad Drunk god that was violent, arbitrary, and demanding of human sacrifice (eg. Isaac, Jesus) into the Feudal Manor Lord god that bestowed the divine right of kings. Many a Roman empoeror or medieval European king gained a throne through the betrayal and sacrifice of others following that model and it was justifiable because it had divine precedent.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

I'm also atheist, but I don't have a problem with the Judas story. Firstly, I don't think that the miracles happened as depicted, so a real-life Judas may have thought "I bet he switched the wine and water flasks" or "I know there's just submerged rocks under that water". Alternatively, if he truly believed in Jesus as a god, then he might think "how could they kill a god?" and would want the silver as he'd expect it to be funny when the Romans couldn't kill him.

simion314 3y ago
I mean miracles like reviving a person that was dead for days, curing blind people, extremely ill people. Like they were togheter for years. What chances are to convince me that those miracles were real if someone that was there and seen them with his eyes had doubts?
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  It's unlikely that miracles happened as described in biblical texts due to the length of time between the events and the recording of them. I'd also expect people to exaggerate or even fabricate stories to boost other narratives, so there's a whole bunch of uncertainty surrounding them. I can imagine Judas hearing someone recounting a miracle and he'd be shaking his head and thinking "I was there, that's not what happened at all".
  - simion314 3y ago
    So what is your point? Judas story might be real but the miracles were not real, and Jesus was a regular man? I honestly don't care if 1% or 5% of the text is real anyway.
    - ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
      My point is that out of all the inconsistencies and bizarreness of various bits of the bible, I find the Judas story itself to be plausible and I don't have a problem with it. I don't think the miracles happened as described and most likely have mundane explanations for them (c.f. magic tricks where many audience members can believe in disappearing elephants), but it's likely that Jesus did exist as there's good evidence that he existed as a historical figure (e.g. evidence of his brother's grave).

jl6 3y ago

I'm sure I read a theory somewhere that Judas was actually the true savior. We are told Jesus suffered for our sins, but his suffering was momentary, whereas Judas's suffering in hell is infinite, without being compensated by any posthumous veneration (quite the opposite - eternal vilification). Jesus's execution was just a sideshow by comparison - a distraction from the true sacrifice.

probably_wrong 3y ago
I think you are referring to "Three versions of Judas" by Jorge Luis Borges. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Versions_of_Judas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Versions_of_Judas
- jl6 3y ago
  That is exactly it, thank you!

probably_wrong 3y ago

> you had a dude following a God for years, witnessing extreme miracles and still the guy had doubts The COVID years have inoculated me against that line of thinking (pun intended). If people would deny that the bodies piling up in hospitals are conclusive evidence of something more than "just a flu" then I can totally imagine an individual seeing a miracle and arguing "dunno, maybe he was just a little dead". And I've definitely seen people take money to argue in favor of policies they know to be false, harmful, or both.

jstanley 3y ago
The problem is that the people you're trying to convince do not have firsthand experience of bodies piling up in hospitals.
- veddox 3y ago
  Well, some of them did. There were a surprising number of doctors and other health-care workers among the Covid/vaccine-sceptics.

veddox 3y ago

The New Testament is pretty open about the fact that what Jesus claimed can be pretty hard to believe. The other disciples doubted Jesus too for a very long time. Yet eventually, what they heard and experienced convinced them enough that they preferred to be put to death rather than deny its truth. What makes you think Judas is more trustworthy than them? (In fact, the Bible's willingness to talk about the weaknesses of its protagonists makes it all the more believable to me. If the early church leaders had "censored" the story to fit their own interests, why did they leave in all that embarrassing stuff about themselves?)