3 ms·

Something like 10k per square meter isn't a bad guesstimate for getting to a high energy standard. Then take a large house and you are there. Building and demol

Something like 10k per square meter isn't a bad guesstimate for getting to a high energy standard. Then take a large house and you are there. Building and demolishing is way more expensive.

ben_w 3y ago
(1) Which currency are you talking in here? (2) This 98m^2 detached house is listed at €104k to build: https://www.massa-haus.de/fertighaus/einfamilienhaus/lifestyle-09-01-s/ https://www.massa-haus.de/fertighaus/einfamilienhaus/lifesty... This is the cheapest they do, yet a thing costing 10k/m^2 as you suggest would cost nearly a million.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Sorry, €1k per square meter. You are looking at the cheapest thing to build. Not at all what a townhouse in a city would cost, for example. You cannot just remove all neighbouring walls etc., so really need to do quite extensive work when re-doing things. So, 300 sqm at 1k is a lot of money. When people bought the houses they were often cheap compared to today, so income hasn't grown with property value.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > So, 300 sqm at 1k is a lot of money. 300 sqm also an unusually large house, from what I'm seeing.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      It is a fairly typical size for a townhouse build in the early 1900s, for example. Sometimes they are chopped up into apartments these days. If you are looking in Germany, some cities have more of them, some less (bit dependent on bomb damages and industrial history, I'd say).
      - ben_w 3y ago
        When properties are chopped up into n apartments, they should be counted as n separate properties. I've just looked at the search results for immobilienscout24.de for Germany-wide "houses" for sale — scare-quotes because based on my other searches, quite a lot turned out to be apartments (individual or the whole building[1]) or hotels[2] — out of a total of 164,772 properties only 12,759 were at least 300 m^2, or 7.7%. Even eight percent cannot possibly be counted as "typical". Of course, it is possible that the people entering info into immobilienscout24 are regularly not paying attention, as this "one room" property with "19 apartments" and "52 garages" suggests: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/146925779?referrer=RESULT_LIST_LISTING&searchId=404d4d02-2fbc-3241-ae56-4e6a9deaa48a&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/146925779?referrer=R... [1] https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/143407389?referrer=RESULT_LIST_LISTING&searchId=efc9ec8f-48b5-3fb1-b757-ee77d01b1c22&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/143407389?referrer=R... [2] https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/147035140?referrer=RESULT_LIST_LISTING&searchId=efc9ec8f-48b5-3fb1-b757-ee77d01b1c22&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/147035140?referrer=R...
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        It is typical for the kind of building I described and they tend not to be on the market much, so not sure how representative your search really is. Entire streets are full of them. Anyway, even a smaller place clocking in at "only" 100k to get to a higher energy efficiency is a lot of money for some retired person, for example (and lending guidelines don't favor old people).
        ben_w 3y ago
        If the category members don't go on the market in the first place, it was already a stranded asset, this state isn't being newly set due to hypothetical future regulations.
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        Sorry, no, this things sell well, but usually not much over platforms. They would become tough for some in case of regulation. It's besides the point anyway, as I was talking about forcing people into difficult to finance things, give up on the place, or distressed selling. Whether that is 100k or 50k or 500k that causes that doesn't really matter at that point.

Something like 10k per square meter isn't a bad guesstimate for getting to a high energy standard. Then take a large house and you are there. Building and demolishing is way more expensive.

ben_w 3y ago

(1) Which currency are you talking in here? (2) This 98m^2 detached house is listed at €104k to build: https://www.massa-haus.de/fertighaus/einfamilienhaus/lifestyle-09-01-s/ https://www.massa-haus.de/fertighaus/einfamilienhaus/lifesty... This is the cheapest they do, yet a thing costing 10k/m^2 as you suggest would cost nearly a million.

RandomLensman 3y ago
Sorry, €1k per square meter. You are looking at the cheapest thing to build. Not at all what a townhouse in a city would cost, for example. You cannot just remove all neighbouring walls etc., so really need to do quite extensive work when re-doing things. So, 300 sqm at 1k is a lot of money. When people bought the houses they were often cheap compared to today, so income hasn't grown with property value.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > So, 300 sqm at 1k is a lot of money. 300 sqm also an unusually large house, from what I'm seeing.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    It is a fairly typical size for a townhouse build in the early 1900s, for example. Sometimes they are chopped up into apartments these days. If you are looking in Germany, some cities have more of them, some less (bit dependent on bomb damages and industrial history, I'd say).
    - ben_w 3y ago
      When properties are chopped up into n apartments, they should be counted as n separate properties. I've just looked at the search results for immobilienscout24.de for Germany-wide "houses" for sale — scare-quotes because based on my other searches, quite a lot turned out to be apartments (individual or the whole building[1]) or hotels[2] — out of a total of 164,772 properties only 12,759 were at least 300 m^2, or 7.7%. Even eight percent cannot possibly be counted as "typical". Of course, it is possible that the people entering info into immobilienscout24 are regularly not paying attention, as this "one room" property with "19 apartments" and "52 garages" suggests: https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/146925779?referrer=RESULT_LIST_LISTING&searchId=404d4d02-2fbc-3241-ae56-4e6a9deaa48a&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/146925779?referrer=R... [1] https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/143407389?referrer=RESULT_LIST_LISTING&searchId=efc9ec8f-48b5-3fb1-b757-ee77d01b1c22&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/143407389?referrer=R... [2] https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/147035140?referrer=RESULT_LIST_LISTING&searchId=efc9ec8f-48b5-3fb1-b757-ee77d01b1c22&searchType=district#/ https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/147035140?referrer=R...
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        It is typical for the kind of building I described and they tend not to be on the market much, so not sure how representative your search really is. Entire streets are full of them. Anyway, even a smaller place clocking in at "only" 100k to get to a higher energy efficiency is a lot of money for some retired person, for example (and lending guidelines don't favor old people).
        ben_w 3y ago
        If the category members don't go on the market in the first place, it was already a stranded asset, this state isn't being newly set due to hypothetical future regulations.
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        Sorry, no, this things sell well, but usually not much over platforms. They would become tough for some in case of regulation. It's besides the point anyway, as I was talking about forcing people into difficult to finance things, give up on the place, or distressed selling. Whether that is 100k or 50k or 500k that causes that doesn't really matter at that point.