5 ms·

'When I tried to play, my hand spasmed and shook': why musicians get the yips

77 points by tintinnabula 3y ago

hsuduebc2 3y ago
It's a weird feeling knowing that your own personal meat bag can broke just like that.
- analog31 3y ago
  This can be a major mental issue for musicians. I'm a "semi pro" jazz bassist. You don't get to the point of being good enough to play out, without it being more than an idle pursuit. I'm terrified of anything going wrong that could take it away from me. It could be mental or physical. It could be practicing too little or too much, or doing it the wrong way.
markrages 3y ago
Scott Devine, YouTube bass teacher, wears a glove while playing. It's a hack to get around focal dystonia. He discusses it at https://youtu.be/a4KFCDIYEQM https://youtu.be/a4KFCDIYEQM
- jventura 3y ago
  As a bass player and follower of Scott's channel, I always thought that it was because of extreme sweating, or something like that. I had a colleague (non-musician) who had to use gloves because of that issue, hence my reasoning.. Thanks for the video!
dmoy 3y ago
In competitive shooting there's a similar phenomenon. See e.g. https://tremorjournal.org/articles/10.5334/tohm.779 https://tremorjournal.org/articles/10.5334/tohm.779
- klyrs 3y ago
  While I've never been olympic-level good at anything... I think I'd rather keep my thalamus.
s5300 3y ago
Don’t have the time to read the full article, but I’m baffled that Thoracic Outlet Syndrome is not mentioned once. A significant amount of Dystonia’s in musicians end up being thoracic outlet syndrome (typically the neurogenic subtype, but a lot of violinists seem to be getting the vascular subtype as well from positioning). Often both (dystonia & TOS, not the subtypes mentioned). Source: My Harvard medical professor/chief of vascular surgery surgeon that’s written books on this.
- pajtai 3y ago
  https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/thoracic-outlet-syndrome https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/thora... sites "pins and needles" as part of symptoms. That's often/usually not part of focal dystonia, so it doesn't quite feel like the same thing at first glance. Maybe I'm missing something.
markx2 3y ago
I first became aware of the yips when Eric Bristow (The Crafty Cockney - UK Darts player) went public about it affecting him. When I just looked to find a link I was surprised to see gymnastics listed. I was aware of Simon Biles withdrawing from competition due to 'not knowing where she was in space' as she performed but I had no idea that although known as the 'twisties' it is a close relative to the yips? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips
mym1990 3y ago
Have had similar experience in playing tennis. I am an advanced-intermediate player but every now and then I get into a place where I more or less unlearn my forehand in an instant. This isn't a feeling of "oh I can't make a good shot due to mistakes"...it literally feels like I have never picked up a tennis racquet. I assume nerves have a lot to do with it, and some go-to visualizations of proper form can get me back, but not 100% of the time.
- horns4lyfe 3y ago
  Had the same thing with golf
- jrumbut 3y ago
  I had the same thing with throwing a baseball (now a softball in my dotage). Interestingly I never had a problem with batting or fielding, just throwing.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    Pitching or fielding? I do think it is interesting that it is localized(in my case) to a certain stroke. So my strategy just becomes serve and volley to avoid hitting the forehand. Other sports may not have the same flexibility haha
    - jrumbut 3y ago
      After this started no one would ever have me pitch (though I did before)! This is just throwing it as a fielder, and basically always first base (or the vestigial catcher position in slowpitch softball) to hide the heinous throws that I would come up with from any other position. But it has gotten better recently. I've been able to distract myself by thinking about anything but throwing and the ball has been coming out in a normal way. No real zip but maybe we'll get there next season.
aeonik 3y ago
I get something like this from time to time, I notice if I notice it coming on, and I take a break for about 4-8 days, and come back, and things feel smoother than ever. At least for me. I also notice if I practice music in the morning, guitar or keyboard, my typing skills increase dramatically for the rest of the day. Not sure if it's related.
- auto 3y ago
  I’ve noticed something similar, just a half hour of noodling on the guitar/bass while working in the middle of the day and I type way faster and correctly afterwards.
jtaft 3y ago
Gentle reminder that to much computer use can cause a repetitive strain injury. Not the same thing, but it’s good to be aware about. Breaks are important.
- Doxin 3y ago
  In addition, for the love of all that is holy, make sure your wrists are at a neutral-ish angle and aren't supporting the weight of your entire arm.
huimang 3y ago
A major fear I have is in developing something like focal dystonia. Such a cruel phenomenon.
redkin 3y ago
[dead]
awfulneutral 3y ago
I have this and I'm not even a good guitarist, but I used to practice every day. Now my index finger curls into my palm whenever I try to play. It sucks, and cratered my practice time because now practice is just frustrating. I hope someone figures out a way to retrain, but I haven't seen a lot of solutions in the reading I've done.
- imp0cat 3y ago
  From the article: "Flow and ease can be the most challenging parts of recovery, because they require developing the habit of intentional, slow and mindful movement. " I'd recomment Jamie Andreas and the book The Principles of Correct Practice For Guitar, there is a lot of ideas about correctly practicing without forcing it.
- saclark11 3y ago
  Jazz guitarist Julian Lage suffered from focal dystonia and talks a little about his recovery/retraining process in his interview with Rick Beato [1] 1. https://youtu.be/49KwbU0hT3w?t=3220&si=MSExP8OTYzohMr-P https://youtu.be/49KwbU0hT3w?t=3220&si=MSExP8OTYzohMr-P
crtified 3y ago
Anybody who works and/or plays in a physically high performing context is treading that fine line, close to their own personal limitations. With consequences like repetitive strain injuries (RSI) - or simply 'injuries, period' - being a common part of the high striving practice. Those principles can be similarly applied to high mental/intellectual striving, in terms of primarily-mental burnout, etc. There's a psychological component too. Anybody ever been walking down the road - a thing most of us have spent hundreds+ of hours doing without ever thinking about it - and suddenly been hit by the sensation that walking feels weird, awkward? Become strangely aware of the stilted mechanics of lifting feet and bending joints, and begun to feel self conscious, as though ones sudden mental doubts were being realised in the form of an unusual, attention-grabbing gait? Then having to sooth over that mental awkwardness, and get back into the feeling of involuntary, un-selfconscious, ordinary walking. Stepping even further afield, it's a similar mental mechanism - of awareness of that which usually operates unremarked - as that upon which silly comedy lines such as "!You are now!, strangely aware of your ... <insert body part or function here>" or "You suddenly ... can't stop thinking about <insert very awkward thing here>" hinge, and which leverage a form of auto-compulsion, aka getting temporarily stuck in a deformed mental loop.
- npsomaratna 3y ago
  Made me think of touch typing. I can touch type at a decent speed (~100 wpm). However, if I let myself think about where the various letters are on the keyboard, I stumble and start having trouble typing. I need to clear my mind to start touch typing again.
  - adhesive_wombat 3y ago
    Same for me, but where it really falls apart is if someone is watching me type.
- Kerbonut 3y ago
  I live for those moments. I use them to try to hone the skill. It’s almost like a moment of clarity, or saying a word too many times and forget the meaning.
davesque 3y ago
Had this in music school. Struck me completely out of nowhere the first day I performed in studio class. I had never really struggled with performance anxiety and then, suddenly, I was completely paralyzed by it.
jacobobryant 3y ago
I'm a clarinetist and got focal dystonia in my senior year of high school. My right pinky would contract whenever I tried to press a key with it; I had to stop playing. The doctor referred me to somewhere at the University of Washington and they ended up giving me a couple botox injections and also took some videos for the sake of research or something. The botox didn't seem to do much. I remember they were really cautious about the dosage since they didn't want me to lose the use of my hand for months. After 2-3 years without touching the clarinet (I went on an LDS mission after high school), I picked it up again and the focal dystonia had subsided quite a bit. I still didn't have a ton of dexterity in my right pinky, but I never did, even before the involuntary contractions started. I suspect that my brute-force approach to practicing may have exacerbated the problem and helped to trigger the dystonia. In any case I was able to play in one of the orchestras at college which is an experience I'm really grateful for. I haven't had much time to play since college, but I'm hoping to get back into it in a few years when the kids are older. And I'll definitely be taking more of a slow-and-steady approach to practicing.
taylodl 3y ago
There's a name for this?! I had suffered with this for years. I'm a guitarist and having your fretting hand lock up is no good! I eventually came to the conclusion I had way too much tension in my neck, shoulders, and forearm. Stuff I found online said play loose, play light in order to fix it. In order to play loose and play light I also needed to play much slower. Over a long time I've managed to build my speed back up while still playing loose and playing light. Turns out I needed to unlearn some really bad habits I'd developed decades ago when first starting to play guitar. The bad habits eventually caught up with me. But yeah, I always wondered what was wrong with me as my hand would get "frozen" with my fingers curled and my being not able to move them. I'm glad I've managed to get beyond it!

77 points by tintinnabula 3y ago

hsuduebc2 3y ago

It's a weird feeling knowing that your own personal meat bag can broke just like that.

analog31 3y ago
This can be a major mental issue for musicians. I'm a "semi pro" jazz bassist. You don't get to the point of being good enough to play out, without it being more than an idle pursuit. I'm terrified of anything going wrong that could take it away from me. It could be mental or physical. It could be practicing too little or too much, or doing it the wrong way.

markrages 3y ago

Scott Devine, YouTube bass teacher, wears a glove while playing. It's a hack to get around focal dystonia. He discusses it at https://youtu.be/a4KFCDIYEQM https://youtu.be/a4KFCDIYEQM

jventura 3y ago
As a bass player and follower of Scott's channel, I always thought that it was because of extreme sweating, or something like that. I had a colleague (non-musician) who had to use gloves because of that issue, hence my reasoning.. Thanks for the video!

dmoy 3y ago

In competitive shooting there's a similar phenomenon. See e.g. https://tremorjournal.org/articles/10.5334/tohm.779 https://tremorjournal.org/articles/10.5334/tohm.779

klyrs 3y ago
While I've never been olympic-level good at anything... I think I'd rather keep my thalamus.

s5300 3y ago

Don’t have the time to read the full article, but I’m baffled that Thoracic Outlet Syndrome is not mentioned once. A significant amount of Dystonia’s in musicians end up being thoracic outlet syndrome (typically the neurogenic subtype, but a lot of violinists seem to be getting the vascular subtype as well from positioning). Often both (dystonia & TOS, not the subtypes mentioned). Source: My Harvard medical professor/chief of vascular surgery surgeon that’s written books on this.

pajtai 3y ago
https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/thoracic-outlet-syndrome https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/thora... sites "pins and needles" as part of symptoms. That's often/usually not part of focal dystonia, so it doesn't quite feel like the same thing at first glance. Maybe I'm missing something.

markx2 3y ago

I first became aware of the yips when Eric Bristow (The Crafty Cockney - UK Darts player) went public about it affecting him. When I just looked to find a link I was surprised to see gymnastics listed. I was aware of Simon Biles withdrawing from competition due to 'not knowing where she was in space' as she performed but I had no idea that although known as the 'twisties' it is a close relative to the yips? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

mym1990 3y ago

Have had similar experience in playing tennis. I am an advanced-intermediate player but every now and then I get into a place where I more or less unlearn my forehand in an instant. This isn't a feeling of "oh I can't make a good shot due to mistakes"...it literally feels like I have never picked up a tennis racquet. I assume nerves have a lot to do with it, and some go-to visualizations of proper form can get me back, but not 100% of the time.

horns4lyfe 3y ago
Had the same thing with golf
jrumbut 3y ago
I had the same thing with throwing a baseball (now a softball in my dotage). Interestingly I never had a problem with batting or fielding, just throwing.
- mym1990 3y ago
  Pitching or fielding? I do think it is interesting that it is localized(in my case) to a certain stroke. So my strategy just becomes serve and volley to avoid hitting the forehand. Other sports may not have the same flexibility haha
  - jrumbut 3y ago
    After this started no one would ever have me pitch (though I did before)! This is just throwing it as a fielder, and basically always first base (or the vestigial catcher position in slowpitch softball) to hide the heinous throws that I would come up with from any other position. But it has gotten better recently. I've been able to distract myself by thinking about anything but throwing and the ball has been coming out in a normal way. No real zip but maybe we'll get there next season.

aeonik 3y ago

I get something like this from time to time, I notice if I notice it coming on, and I take a break for about 4-8 days, and come back, and things feel smoother than ever. At least for me. I also notice if I practice music in the morning, guitar or keyboard, my typing skills increase dramatically for the rest of the day. Not sure if it's related.

auto 3y ago
I’ve noticed something similar, just a half hour of noodling on the guitar/bass while working in the middle of the day and I type way faster and correctly afterwards.

jtaft 3y ago

Gentle reminder that to much computer use can cause a repetitive strain injury. Not the same thing, but it’s good to be aware about. Breaks are important.

Doxin 3y ago
In addition, for the love of all that is holy, make sure your wrists are at a neutral-ish angle and aren't supporting the weight of your entire arm.

huimang 3y ago

A major fear I have is in developing something like focal dystonia. Such a cruel phenomenon.

redkin 3y ago

[dead]

awfulneutral 3y ago

I have this and I'm not even a good guitarist, but I used to practice every day. Now my index finger curls into my palm whenever I try to play. It sucks, and cratered my practice time because now practice is just frustrating. I hope someone figures out a way to retrain, but I haven't seen a lot of solutions in the reading I've done.

imp0cat 3y ago
From the article: "Flow and ease can be the most challenging parts of recovery, because they require developing the habit of intentional, slow and mindful movement. " I'd recomment Jamie Andreas and the book The Principles of Correct Practice For Guitar, there is a lot of ideas about correctly practicing without forcing it.
saclark11 3y ago
Jazz guitarist Julian Lage suffered from focal dystonia and talks a little about his recovery/retraining process in his interview with Rick Beato [1] 1. https://youtu.be/49KwbU0hT3w?t=3220&si=MSExP8OTYzohMr-P https://youtu.be/49KwbU0hT3w?t=3220&si=MSExP8OTYzohMr-P

crtified 3y ago

Anybody who works and/or plays in a physically high performing context is treading that fine line, close to their own personal limitations. With consequences like repetitive strain injuries (RSI) - or simply 'injuries, period' - being a common part of the high striving practice. Those principles can be similarly applied to high mental/intellectual striving, in terms of primarily-mental burnout, etc. There's a psychological component too. Anybody ever been walking down the road - a thing most of us have spent hundreds+ of hours doing without ever thinking about it - and suddenly been hit by the sensation that walking feels weird, awkward? Become strangely aware of the stilted mechanics of lifting feet and bending joints, and begun to feel self conscious, as though ones sudden mental doubts were being realised in the form of an unusual, attention-grabbing gait? Then having to sooth over that mental awkwardness, and get back into the feeling of involuntary, un-selfconscious, ordinary walking. Stepping even further afield, it's a similar mental mechanism - of awareness of that which usually operates unremarked - as that upon which silly comedy lines such as "!You are now!, strangely aware of your ... <insert body part or function here>" or "You suddenly ... can't stop thinking about <insert very awkward thing here>" hinge, and which leverage a form of auto-compulsion, aka getting temporarily stuck in a deformed mental loop.

npsomaratna 3y ago
Made me think of touch typing. I can touch type at a decent speed (~100 wpm). However, if I let myself think about where the various letters are on the keyboard, I stumble and start having trouble typing. I need to clear my mind to start touch typing again.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  Same for me, but where it really falls apart is if someone is watching me type.
Kerbonut 3y ago
I live for those moments. I use them to try to hone the skill. It’s almost like a moment of clarity, or saying a word too many times and forget the meaning.

davesque 3y ago

Had this in music school. Struck me completely out of nowhere the first day I performed in studio class. I had never really struggled with performance anxiety and then, suddenly, I was completely paralyzed by it.

jacobobryant 3y ago

I'm a clarinetist and got focal dystonia in my senior year of high school. My right pinky would contract whenever I tried to press a key with it; I had to stop playing. The doctor referred me to somewhere at the University of Washington and they ended up giving me a couple botox injections and also took some videos for the sake of research or something. The botox didn't seem to do much. I remember they were really cautious about the dosage since they didn't want me to lose the use of my hand for months. After 2-3 years without touching the clarinet (I went on an LDS mission after high school), I picked it up again and the focal dystonia had subsided quite a bit. I still didn't have a ton of dexterity in my right pinky, but I never did, even before the involuntary contractions started. I suspect that my brute-force approach to practicing may have exacerbated the problem and helped to trigger the dystonia. In any case I was able to play in one of the orchestras at college which is an experience I'm really grateful for. I haven't had much time to play since college, but I'm hoping to get back into it in a few years when the kids are older. And I'll definitely be taking more of a slow-and-steady approach to practicing.

taylodl 3y ago

There's a name for this?! I had suffered with this for years. I'm a guitarist and having your fretting hand lock up is no good! I eventually came to the conclusion I had way too much tension in my neck, shoulders, and forearm. Stuff I found online said play loose, play light in order to fix it. In order to play loose and play light I also needed to play much slower. Over a long time I've managed to build my speed back up while still playing loose and playing light. Turns out I needed to unlearn some really bad habits I'd developed decades ago when first starting to play guitar. The bad habits eventually caught up with me. But yeah, I always wondered what was wrong with me as my hand would get "frozen" with my fingers curled and my being not able to move them. I'm glad I've managed to get beyond it!