3 ms·

People are so enamored by the idea of EU, and cooperation across European borders, that they fail to see what kind of entity it really is, and what people contr

by zosima 3y ago

People are so enamored by the idea of EU, and cooperation across European borders, that they fail to see what kind of entity it really is, and what people control it. If this monster is not controlled it will grow to become another USSR, completely stifling all innovation in Europe, 24/7 censoring what is appropriate for citizens to read and see, while continuously spying on everyone, everywhere. It can't be allowed to continue.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
MrRolleyes 3y ago
[dead]
DoingIsLearning 3y ago
European Parliament mostly works and has mostly curbed the EC's incompetence, ill-intent, overreach. The issue is the European Comission and the Council of Ministers that appoints them. The EC seems to progressively be filled by increasingly incompetent and unqualified comissioners. But more worrying for me is their increasing affinity with lobbying. Many legal systems across the EU explicitly prohibit lobbying not sure why we even allow it in the EU.
- adev_ 3y ago
  Exactly. The main problem with the EU is that it is an entity with a construction aborted half-way. The EU parlement is a example of what the EU should be. The EU commission is not. The EU commission was literally intended as a temporary fix for the executive power on the road of a broader European federation. The federarion never happened. And is very unlikely to happen with the PPE (main European conservative party) and the extreme right dominating the political landscape.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    European federalism is very popular in Brussels, much less so elsewhere. Regardless of the fact that their politicians once signed treaties proclaiming a vague "ever closer Union", the nations themselves don't want to integrate to the same level as the US did. Any federalization proposal that would be subject to referenda would be shot down in a supermajority of member countries. The current state of things, "aborted half-way", is a consequence of social engineering that failed to take into account the possibility that its preferred endgame may not be attractive and that in democracies, going behind the back of the voters can only get you so far. The integration of the EU basically stopped once it became impossible to hide preparation of new treaties and legislation from the voters by distracting people by something else in the media. This is also case of the legislation we are talking about now. Of course the authors of Chat Control 2.0 would prefer to agree to the entire thing in darkness, but the Internet makes it very hard to conceal the plan.
    - adev_ 3y ago
      > European federalism is very popular in Brussels, much less so elsewhere. Having more democratic EU institution is currently not related to federalism. You can currently even have fully democratic institutions in a confederation system with limited power. Switzerland was an example of that. > the current state of things, "aborted half-way", is a consequence of social engineering that failed to take into account That is the pretty common eurosceptic speech and fortunately does not match the reality. Most poll in Western Europe confirms an overwhelming majority of pro-EU position[^1]. It is currently even stronger in the younger generation. The integration of the EU stopped because there is a political interest to keep it in its current state. An half baked monster is much easier to corrupt and control through lobbying and diplomatic negotiation than a democratic institution. If you want to convince yourself of that, simply have a look on the last 2023 European Energy market reform. It is a shit show of hidden national interests not even half covered up. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/24/people-broadly-view-the-eu-favorably-both-in-member-states-and-elsewhere/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/24/people-br...
WinstonSmith84 3y ago
hm well, that goes a bit out of topic here. As much as I truly hate to see what the commission is doing, it's naive to think that individual countries are just wishing something better for their people. In fact, this legislation may have been promoted by some EU countries. The chance of the EU is that it's big enough that 500m people care about it, and that's how such things come to light. If it were a random small EU country going full speed to 1984, the chance is much higher that such a legislation would be approved. And then the next country.. all slowly falling like domino
- colpabar 3y ago
  It seems like it’d be better if one country could go down that path alone, just so the rest of us could point to it as a reminder of why we shouldn’t do the things that it did. The EU makes it so it has to happen to everyone at once.
  - creer 3y ago
    You mean like the UK? The US? India? There are plenty of things that can be pointed out. And few people who will believe it's relevant (that's not just a US thing) and many people who find it a justification for their own obsession ("they are doing it, and so should we.")
- creer 3y ago
  Yes, many not-really in sync countries are a great protection there. And still not effective enough probably. In part there is a lot of group-think overall - which even separate countries have a hard time fighting, when they even notice it or have a will to fight it. For another problem, there are two countries with disproportionate population and economics weight - they cannot outright dictate with impunity but they are in a position to make everyone else negotiate and mostly agree with them.
miniBill 3y ago
I'm in love with the idea of the EU, that doesn't mean that I think any of this is remotely acceptable. And I think that "it can't be allowed to continue" is a dumb idea
akira2501 3y ago
To me, the internet should have destroyed the idea of a large centralized federal bureaucracy. The two ideas are almost entirely incompatible. The citizens now have access to each other, their local government, and to world news in a way they never had before. I have a feeling that getting rid of all the large centralized power structures would allow the gift the internet to truly flourish for humanity.
- kuchenbecker 3y ago
  There's a tension in tech between client control and server control. Big Tech have largely been removing the knobs of client control within their apps while using the power of defaults to slow people switching.

by zosima 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

MrRolleyes 3y ago

[dead]

DoingIsLearning 3y ago

European Parliament mostly works and has mostly curbed the EC's incompetence, ill-intent, overreach. The issue is the European Comission and the Council of Ministers that appoints them. The EC seems to progressively be filled by increasingly incompetent and unqualified comissioners. But more worrying for me is their increasing affinity with lobbying. Many legal systems across the EU explicitly prohibit lobbying not sure why we even allow it in the EU.

adev_ 3y ago
Exactly. The main problem with the EU is that it is an entity with a construction aborted half-way. The EU parlement is a example of what the EU should be. The EU commission is not. The EU commission was literally intended as a temporary fix for the executive power on the road of a broader European federation. The federarion never happened. And is very unlikely to happen with the PPE (main European conservative party) and the extreme right dominating the political landscape.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  European federalism is very popular in Brussels, much less so elsewhere. Regardless of the fact that their politicians once signed treaties proclaiming a vague "ever closer Union", the nations themselves don't want to integrate to the same level as the US did. Any federalization proposal that would be subject to referenda would be shot down in a supermajority of member countries. The current state of things, "aborted half-way", is a consequence of social engineering that failed to take into account the possibility that its preferred endgame may not be attractive and that in democracies, going behind the back of the voters can only get you so far. The integration of the EU basically stopped once it became impossible to hide preparation of new treaties and legislation from the voters by distracting people by something else in the media. This is also case of the legislation we are talking about now. Of course the authors of Chat Control 2.0 would prefer to agree to the entire thing in darkness, but the Internet makes it very hard to conceal the plan.
  - adev_ 3y ago
    > European federalism is very popular in Brussels, much less so elsewhere. Having more democratic EU institution is currently not related to federalism. You can currently even have fully democratic institutions in a confederation system with limited power. Switzerland was an example of that. > the current state of things, "aborted half-way", is a consequence of social engineering that failed to take into account That is the pretty common eurosceptic speech and fortunately does not match the reality. Most poll in Western Europe confirms an overwhelming majority of pro-EU position[^1]. It is currently even stronger in the younger generation. The integration of the EU stopped because there is a political interest to keep it in its current state. An half baked monster is much easier to corrupt and control through lobbying and diplomatic negotiation than a democratic institution. If you want to convince yourself of that, simply have a look on the last 2023 European Energy market reform. It is a shit show of hidden national interests not even half covered up. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/24/people-broadly-view-the-eu-favorably-both-in-member-states-and-elsewhere/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/24/people-br...

WinstonSmith84 3y ago

hm well, that goes a bit out of topic here. As much as I truly hate to see what the commission is doing, it's naive to think that individual countries are just wishing something better for their people. In fact, this legislation may have been promoted by some EU countries. The chance of the EU is that it's big enough that 500m people care about it, and that's how such things come to light. If it were a random small EU country going full speed to 1984, the chance is much higher that such a legislation would be approved. And then the next country.. all slowly falling like domino

colpabar 3y ago
It seems like it’d be better if one country could go down that path alone, just so the rest of us could point to it as a reminder of why we shouldn’t do the things that it did. The EU makes it so it has to happen to everyone at once.
- creer 3y ago
  You mean like the UK? The US? India? There are plenty of things that can be pointed out. And few people who will believe it's relevant (that's not just a US thing) and many people who find it a justification for their own obsession ("they are doing it, and so should we.")
creer 3y ago
Yes, many not-really in sync countries are a great protection there. And still not effective enough probably. In part there is a lot of group-think overall - which even separate countries have a hard time fighting, when they even notice it or have a will to fight it. For another problem, there are two countries with disproportionate population and economics weight - they cannot outright dictate with impunity but they are in a position to make everyone else negotiate and mostly agree with them.

miniBill 3y ago

I'm in love with the idea of the EU, that doesn't mean that I think any of this is remotely acceptable. And I think that "it can't be allowed to continue" is a dumb idea

akira2501 3y ago

To me, the internet should have destroyed the idea of a large centralized federal bureaucracy. The two ideas are almost entirely incompatible. The citizens now have access to each other, their local government, and to world news in a way they never had before. I have a feeling that getting rid of all the large centralized power structures would allow the gift the internet to truly flourish for humanity.

kuchenbecker 3y ago
There's a tension in tech between client control and server control. Big Tech have largely been removing the knobs of client control within their apps while using the power of defaults to slow people switching.