3 ms·

> this particular case is about testifying to congress. It's not a criminal trial in a court of law. But it's still testimony given under oath. AFAIK perjury i

by pdonis 3y ago

> this particular case is about testifying to congress. It's not a criminal trial in a court of law. But it's still testimony given under oath. AFAIK perjury is still applicable under those circumstances.

JohnFen 3y ago
It is, but the enforcement mechanism is a bit different.
- pdonis 3y ago
  How so?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    In a court, the court determines if something is perjury and what the repercussions will be. That's not the case with congress. With congress, the congressional committee doesn't decide if perjury happened. It has to ask the Department of Justice to investigate and, if it did, the DoJ has the option of bringing charges in an actual court of law. It may seem like a small difference, but it's pretty large in practice.
ceejayoz 3y ago
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1621 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1621 > willfully and contrary to such oath states or subscribes any material matter which he does not believe to be true Intent (“willfully”) matters. If you believe the statement is true when you say it, it isn’t perjury. It’s just incorrect.
- pdonis 3y ago
  > If you believe the statement is true when you say it, it isn’t perjury. It’s just incorrect. Yes, but whether you believed the statement was true when you said is not just a matter of your saying so. Other evidence can be brought to bear on the question: for example, as I have said elsewhere in this discussion, asking you how you came to believe that what you said was true, and you either admitting that you just made it up or had no good reason to believe it, or giving obviously false or evasive answers, or answers that are rebutted by other evidence (for example, you say you were told it by someone who denies that they did so). That could lead a jury in a perjury trial to conclude that in fact you were wilfully lying, even though you deny it.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Yes, but when given evidence from which they might draw other conclusions, a trier of fact may not be inclined to heavily favor your testimony about your state of mind when you gave your false but maybe-or-maybe-not willfully false testimony.

by pdonis 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

It is, but the enforcement mechanism is a bit different.

pdonis 3y ago
How so?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  In a court, the court determines if something is perjury and what the repercussions will be. That's not the case with congress. With congress, the congressional committee doesn't decide if perjury happened. It has to ask the Department of Justice to investigate and, if it did, the DoJ has the option of bringing charges in an actual court of law. It may seem like a small difference, but it's pretty large in practice.

ceejayoz 3y ago

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1621 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1621 > willfully and contrary to such oath states or subscribes any material matter which he does not believe to be true Intent (“willfully”) matters. If you believe the statement is true when you say it, it isn’t perjury. It’s just incorrect.

pdonis 3y ago
> If you believe the statement is true when you say it, it isn’t perjury. It’s just incorrect. Yes, but whether you believed the statement was true when you said is not just a matter of your saying so. Other evidence can be brought to bear on the question: for example, as I have said elsewhere in this discussion, asking you how you came to believe that what you said was true, and you either admitting that you just made it up or had no good reason to believe it, or giving obviously false or evasive answers, or answers that are rebutted by other evidence (for example, you say you were told it by someone who denies that they did so). That could lead a jury in a perjury trial to conclude that in fact you were wilfully lying, even though you deny it.
dragonwriter 3y ago
Yes, but when given evidence from which they might draw other conclusions, a trier of fact may not be inclined to heavily favor your testimony about your state of mind when you gave your false but maybe-or-maybe-not willfully false testimony.