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I said "kinda" because I didn't want to get into the whole trinity stuff, since it's besides the point to me. But I agree that many Christians, and Muslims, and

I said "kinda" because I didn't want to get into the whole trinity stuff, since it's besides the point to me. But I agree that many Christians, and Muslims, and Jews (and other monotheists) are great people, my last paragraph was a bit harsh. I know many of those people would be happy for everyone to go to heaven, or paradise, or at least find peace in death, whatever it may be, they pray for them, and not just to get brownie points but out of genuine compassion. I know that. But in my opinion, it's because they're better than the religion. That is their humanity, such humanity is not found in the source materials. I can only speak for myself: in my early 20s, I was confused and deeply in pain about the state of the world, and through a series of coincidences (or signs from God :P) I ended up kinda, vaguely, believing in it. I wanted to believe in it. But I could not get over my empathy for everyone: if everybody isn't saved, nobody is saved. Not to mention that "saving" someone from the wrath you inflict on someone for not believing you saved them is equal parts crazy and abusive. Jesus can mock the wise and laud the wide-eyed children all he wants, but even in the deepest depths of my desperation I could not accept it. I read the stuff, I think about it, and I'm out. My beef isn't with God, if it exists. But I do have beef with religion, yes. Disappointed with the Bible, I turned to the Quran, found the exact same content with even more bragging. And something about "Jesus can save you (if you let him)" did kinda trigger me, since the Bible says, nobody can come to God lest they get pulled. So don't blame people for not getting pulled, that's victim blaming.

explaininjs 3y ago
The way you speak of wrath gives me the impression you have only heard of the "eternal conscious torment" interpretation of Hell. You should know that this isn't found in the preachings of Jesus, or the Bible in general. There are several other Biblically-founded interpretations of Hell, including things like "torment in proportion to sins", "torment until repentance", and what might be considered "eternal emptiness", basically the same as what an atheist would say happens on death. I learned this via these lectures: https://www.thenarrowpath.com/topical_lectures.php#Three_Views_of_Hell https://www.thenarrowpath.com/topical_lectures.php#Three_Vie..., but you can google "three views of hell" to get a variety of takes on the topic. Under these interpretations, there is no "wrath" inflicted upon the lost, they simply do not gain the reward of having faith and instead enter into the "default" death state. > "Jesus can save you (if you let him)" did kinda trigger me, since the Bible says, nobody can come to God lest they get pulled. So don't blame people for not getting pulled, that's victim blaming. Your view is sounds consistent with a lack of belief in Free Will, is that what you believe? The Calvinist branch of Christianity supports this view, but it is not the only interpretation. If you don't believe in Free Will might as well just stop reading here because nothing is in your control anyways :) If on the other hand you do believe in Free Will, it must be the case that you have a choice in coming to Christ. It is true that nobody can come unless they are pulled, but they can also resist that pull. The Bible speaks many times of God saying mortals resisted His call. Most famously perhaps Sodom and Gamora. And the pull can come in many forms, most commonly in being preached the Gospel. It is very hard at this point to exist in the world without someone at some point having attempted to preach the Gospel to you, and the Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ gave up his life so that all may be saved. Indeed, the most famous sentence in perhaps all of time supports this: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (emphasis mine). So under a non-Calvinist interpretation everybody has the opportunity to come to salvation, assuming they have heard of Christ (the pull), and it is up to them to choose to do so, by choosing to believe in Him.

explaininjs 3y ago

The way you speak of wrath gives me the impression you have only heard of the "eternal conscious torment" interpretation of Hell. You should know that this isn't found in the preachings of Jesus, or the Bible in general. There are several other Biblically-founded interpretations of Hell, including things like "torment in proportion to sins", "torment until repentance", and what might be considered "eternal emptiness", basically the same as what an atheist would say happens on death. I learned this via these lectures: https://www.thenarrowpath.com/topical_lectures.php#Three_Views_of_Hell https://www.thenarrowpath.com/topical_lectures.php#Three_Vie..., but you can google "three views of hell" to get a variety of takes on the topic. Under these interpretations, there is no "wrath" inflicted upon the lost, they simply do not gain the reward of having faith and instead enter into the "default" death state. > "Jesus can save you (if you let him)" did kinda trigger me, since the Bible says, nobody can come to God lest they get pulled. So don't blame people for not getting pulled, that's victim blaming. Your view is sounds consistent with a lack of belief in Free Will, is that what you believe? The Calvinist branch of Christianity supports this view, but it is not the only interpretation. If you don't believe in Free Will might as well just stop reading here because nothing is in your control anyways :) If on the other hand you do believe in Free Will, it must be the case that you have a choice in coming to Christ. It is true that nobody can come unless they are pulled, but they can also resist that pull. The Bible speaks many times of God saying mortals resisted His call. Most famously perhaps Sodom and Gamora. And the pull can come in many forms, most commonly in being preached the Gospel. It is very hard at this point to exist in the world without someone at some point having attempted to preach the Gospel to you, and the Bible makes it clear that Jesus Christ gave up his life so that all may be saved. Indeed, the most famous sentence in perhaps all of time supports this: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (emphasis mine). So under a non-Calvinist interpretation everybody has the opportunity to come to salvation, assuming they have heard of Christ (the pull), and it is up to them to choose to do so, by choosing to believe in Him.