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> Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. I can see why that is; otoh a few Palestinians I've spoken to feel a deep longing for the farms and the lands

> Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. I can see why that is; otoh a few Palestinians I've spoken to feel a deep longing for the farms and the lands they lost. This impasse must inform them that their violent struggle (Fidayeen etc) did more harm than good. So much so that, their non-violent struggle is also met with violence. A first step could be for the Israeli government to acknowledge that pain, even if they won't grant them their right (which, personally, I think they should on a case-by-case basis, like how the US hands Green Cards, for instance). > Jerusalem has always been a problem. Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too. The Ottomans established the status quo, but that's all gone. Perhaps, a new status quo can be agreed. Normalization efforts are a great start in that direction. > UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with... They even persecute us, so no objections to that (: > It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization. Not defending him, but to clarify, I believe, Finkelstein is left / far-left? And that he isn't approving of their terror, but he says he can't condemn them as well (which perhaps can be misconstrued as siding with them... very thin ice to stand on) as he sees Gaza as a concentration camp, and Hamas' attacks as a natural outcome of an oppressed people (not my view). > As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict. Yeah the peoples must be humanized in each others eyes: I see Israelis (in tech) latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. The pain and the suffering that can lead to such a world-view (on both the sides) is just unfathomable. May be, via education (like you say) and with time, this will go away. > Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse. Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Sunak's remarks still continue to be. As politicians, I think they understand better than most that the issue of Palestine is emotionally charged unlike any other (this has nothing to do with antisemistism like some claim, but a sense of injustice and loss of pride from being repeatedly trounced across decades in defeats), and equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world. I refuse to believe the policy makers are this out of touch, and so, the only other possible explanation is, they are out of their depth. > Moderation in the combat is one of them. Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The Palestinians aren't sufficiently protected. I don't have a good answer to what else the Israeli government could do, but some have suggested doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy (ex: after the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai, the worst in India's history but not at the scale of 7 Oct, by Pakistan-sponsored militants, India did nothing violent; though, granted Pakistan's nuclear deterrence also plays a role in this). In fact, despite the scale of Israeli response, there already exist vocal factions within the Arab world that vehemently condemn Hamas for summoning this war and unrest, and squarely blame them (not Israelis) for the plight of Gazans. > Clear and defined goals is another. The news has been that there isn't any apart from either driving civilians in to Sinai or destruction of Gaza in a bid to weed-out Hamas; both of which will destabilize the region. Even if there's a ceasefire tomorrow, the worrying part is, how many billions and years are needed for Gaza to even recover from this? There's also the psychological side for the 2million subject to this war. I stumbled upon a video of Israeli bombardment recently, and it truly seemed like apocalypse (https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541 https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541).

invalidname 3y ago
> Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too Hebron shouldn't be a problem. The Jews living there are nuts, the worst of the worse. > but he says he can't condemn Yes. That's pretty much the same as an endorsement when faced with stuff like this... > latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. This is annoying to me too. It does a disservice to their claim. Like equivocating anti-occupation with anti-Israel or worse antisemitism. That's stupid. I think that in the past few weeks a lot of people who would normally not say such things became overly triggered. So I'd take it in that context. A lot of people who would normally be very responsive to the plight of the Palestinian people just don't want to hear that at this moment. Having seen the celebrations and the comments online after October 7th, lots of moderate Israelis shifted to the right as a result of that. > Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Yes. This was also a one sided issue. The history isn't new and his support for a 2 state solution has been well documented. So has his disdain for Netanyahu and his lies. Biden filled in a leadership vacuum. He was widely hated by the right wing in Israel and in one speech he flipped that completely. The aircraft carriers he placed on the shores serve two purposes. One is indeed to deter Iran. But the more subtle one is to remind Israel of US power. He uses it to pull the strings in the cabinet. He and his people actually sit in on security cabinet meetings to form a strategy and make sure Israel doesn't do anything stupid or evil. He was discussing the problems and trauma of Mosul. There's serious concern that the Israeli army would just go into Gaza with no real plan and turn it into something similar. > equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world I think this is aimed mostly at the west. Probably the aim for the Muslim world is to connect Hamas and Iran. There are many hints that Iran is pulling the strings with Hamas as it did with Syria and Lebanon. > Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The claim is that once the ground troops go in the number of civilian casualties will be MUCH higher. > doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy The problem is that Israel maintained peace through fear of its mighty army. Yes, there are peace treaties but the Muslim Brotherhood is a step away from the throne of Egypt. The region can flip. Empathy doesn't help in this regard, Israel is perceived as weak and this projects on the USA as well. India is in a very different situation. It's the most populous country on earth, even though they have issues with China and Pakistan they have no actual existential fear. Also, having been to India quite a bit... They are turning into a police state over there. Not a great place to be in anymore.

invalidname 3y ago

> Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too Hebron shouldn't be a problem. The Jews living there are nuts, the worst of the worse. > but he says he can't condemn Yes. That's pretty much the same as an endorsement when faced with stuff like this... > latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. This is annoying to me too. It does a disservice to their claim. Like equivocating anti-occupation with anti-Israel or worse antisemitism. That's stupid. I think that in the past few weeks a lot of people who would normally not say such things became overly triggered. So I'd take it in that context. A lot of people who would normally be very responsive to the plight of the Palestinian people just don't want to hear that at this moment. Having seen the celebrations and the comments online after October 7th, lots of moderate Israelis shifted to the right as a result of that. > Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Yes. This was also a one sided issue. The history isn't new and his support for a 2 state solution has been well documented. So has his disdain for Netanyahu and his lies. Biden filled in a leadership vacuum. He was widely hated by the right wing in Israel and in one speech he flipped that completely. The aircraft carriers he placed on the shores serve two purposes. One is indeed to deter Iran. But the more subtle one is to remind Israel of US power. He uses it to pull the strings in the cabinet. He and his people actually sit in on security cabinet meetings to form a strategy and make sure Israel doesn't do anything stupid or evil. He was discussing the problems and trauma of Mosul. There's serious concern that the Israeli army would just go into Gaza with no real plan and turn it into something similar. > equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world I think this is aimed mostly at the west. Probably the aim for the Muslim world is to connect Hamas and Iran. There are many hints that Iran is pulling the strings with Hamas as it did with Syria and Lebanon. > Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The claim is that once the ground troops go in the number of civilian casualties will be MUCH higher. > doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy The problem is that Israel maintained peace through fear of its mighty army. Yes, there are peace treaties but the Muslim Brotherhood is a step away from the throne of Egypt. The region can flip. Empathy doesn't help in this regard, Israel is perceived as weak and this projects on the USA as well. India is in a very different situation. It's the most populous country on earth, even though they have issues with China and Pakistan they have no actual existential fear. Also, having been to India quite a bit... They are turning into a police state over there. Not a great place to be in anymore.