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"If you live somewhere where you have to drive, you are a captive audience" I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly massive this country is. I have to

"If you live somewhere where you have to drive, you are a captive audience" I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly massive this country is. I have to drive 15 miles to work everyday. If I couldn't drive, I would literally just starve and die (or, I suppose start working as a local farmhand). It's funny, I feel the same way about people who live in small areas and don't have the ability to independently go anywhere they want at any time without having to rely on someone else. The "walkable city" feels like a hellscape archetype for the most captive audience you could ever possibly conceive...

globular-toast 3y ago
Every able bodied person can cycle 15 miles. What a shame that people don't even know what their own bodies are capable of. "I would literally starve and die". This is a sad, sad comment. I would laugh but I just find it so sad that you've got all these able bodied adults unable to get around without wheelchairs. Wall-E isn't about the future.
- vwcx 3y ago
  Some of the most fun I've had outdoors with friends is when they want to try biking (or bikepacking) with me. You're right that people generally have no understanding of what they're capable of (and that no herculean effort is required). I suspect that some of this is a result of humans being increasingly unable to estimate true distances. In my city, it can take 45 minutes to drive 3 miles, so most non-bikers understand 3 miles to be an insurmountable distance.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    That's a good point. Americans I've met seem to only associate miles with cars. While a British person might say "let's walk, it's only a mile", Americans would say "you can't walk, it's a mile!". Of course, if you do walk a mile then that's a "hike". In British that's also just called a walk.
Moldoteck 3y ago
That's the point, due to zoning & parking laws, density is lower, ppl need to drive more. Imagine both laws changed, how much the supply could increase, how many ppl would choose to move into the city instead of long commute. Combined with better pub transport&bike lanes both propulsed by high density, a lot of ppl would be able to live carfree
jeffbee 3y ago
[flagged]
- gottorf 3y ago
  What an unwarranted attack. You could equally say that the NPR you listen to in your tiny apartment that you pay $3000 a month for has poisoned your brain to such an extent that you believe walking 50 feet down a government sidewalk makes you the heir of Thoreau, while people who drive to work are idiots.
- rootsudo 3y ago
  Exactly this. Cars shouldn’t be needed. And 15 miles is bikable in an hour. The fact that people are so passionate about cars as necessary is sad.
  - falcolas 3y ago
    A 2 hour round trip commute in the weather does not compare favorably to a 30 minute round trip commute in a conditioned space. Source: I did such a commute. It sucked royally. Nothing like finishing a shift tired and still looking forward to a 1 hour ride in the rain.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      Ah yeah... Doesn't compare favourable to muh conditioned space, guess I'll just die then!
helen___keller 3y ago
> I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly massive this country is. On the other hand, I don’t think you appreciate how much vehicle usage in this country is tied to round trip commutes to and from an urban center I don’t think anyone is arguing that a rural lifestyle should exist on bikes and trains because that doesn’t make sense. However people who live adjacent to a city and go into the city every day, aren’t living a rural lifestyle. > It's funny, I feel the same way about people who live in small areas and don't have the ability to independently go anywhere they want at any time without having to rely on someone else. The "walkable city" feels like a hellscape archetype for the most captive audience you could ever possibly conceive... These are not mutually exclusive concepts unless you live in Manhattan. I live a 10 minute walk to a subway station that brings me downtown to work. I also have a driveway and a car, and sometimes I drive to the parking garage next to my work. I also drive all over New England on the weekends.
theluketaylor 3y ago
A single subway line in Toronto is 38 km / 24 miles long. A single regional rail line passing through downtown is 114 km / 71 miles long. A 15 mile commute is perfectly achievable on public transit when the facilities exist.
- falcolas 3y ago
  In the rural US, you'd have maybe 1-2 people per hour who would take said public transit route. Most hours, you'd have zero.
  - cooper_ganglia 3y ago
    Yeah, I drive through 3 other towns before even getting to the town I work in. And the town I work in is 10-15 minutes off the "main road" (if you can even call it that, lol) so setting this up with public transport means having an entire bus SOLELY for me. You'd waste more than you'd save. I can't live closer, and my work can't move. These are the realities of living in the country. It's awesome and I wouldn't change it for the world, but stuff is just far apart, no matter what. People really, really do not understand what living rural is like.
    - theluketaylor 3y ago
      > People really, really do not understand what living rural is like. The same criticism applies equally well to rural dwellers about urban life which is why someone rural could be shocked by the idea someone might actively choose to to travel by high quality public transportation. I have lived both rural and urban and actively choose urban. Rural is a fine choice too, but rural dwellers shouldn't expect their energy intensive and economically expensive lifestyle to be subsidized by urban dwellers forever. Maintaining a huge road network with relatively low utilization is massively expensive and western rural life is currently among the most carbon intensive lifestyles.
      - vidanay 3y ago
        Are you hypothesizing that eventually everyone will/should move to urban areas? I don't think that will end up being sustainable either.
colingoodman 3y ago
You're correct that rural life is an exception here, but most Americans don't live in rural areas and I presume that's what the other user is talking about. In many American cities there just aren't good alternative options, you need to spend the money on a car to get around even if you live in a reasonably urban area.

globular-toast 3y ago

Every able bodied person can cycle 15 miles. What a shame that people don't even know what their own bodies are capable of. "I would literally starve and die". This is a sad, sad comment. I would laugh but I just find it so sad that you've got all these able bodied adults unable to get around without wheelchairs. Wall-E isn't about the future.

vwcx 3y ago
Some of the most fun I've had outdoors with friends is when they want to try biking (or bikepacking) with me. You're right that people generally have no understanding of what they're capable of (and that no herculean effort is required). I suspect that some of this is a result of humans being increasingly unable to estimate true distances. In my city, it can take 45 minutes to drive 3 miles, so most non-bikers understand 3 miles to be an insurmountable distance.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  That's a good point. Americans I've met seem to only associate miles with cars. While a British person might say "let's walk, it's only a mile", Americans would say "you can't walk, it's a mile!". Of course, if you do walk a mile then that's a "hike". In British that's also just called a walk.

Moldoteck 3y ago

That's the point, due to zoning & parking laws, density is lower, ppl need to drive more. Imagine both laws changed, how much the supply could increase, how many ppl would choose to move into the city instead of long commute. Combined with better pub transport&bike lanes both propulsed by high density, a lot of ppl would be able to live carfree

jeffbee 3y ago

[flagged]

gottorf 3y ago
What an unwarranted attack. You could equally say that the NPR you listen to in your tiny apartment that you pay $3000 a month for has poisoned your brain to such an extent that you believe walking 50 feet down a government sidewalk makes you the heir of Thoreau, while people who drive to work are idiots.
rootsudo 3y ago
Exactly this. Cars shouldn’t be needed. And 15 miles is bikable in an hour. The fact that people are so passionate about cars as necessary is sad.
- falcolas 3y ago
  A 2 hour round trip commute in the weather does not compare favorably to a 30 minute round trip commute in a conditioned space. Source: I did such a commute. It sucked royally. Nothing like finishing a shift tired and still looking forward to a 1 hour ride in the rain.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    Ah yeah... Doesn't compare favourable to muh conditioned space, guess I'll just die then!

helen___keller 3y ago

> I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly massive this country is. On the other hand, I don’t think you appreciate how much vehicle usage in this country is tied to round trip commutes to and from an urban center I don’t think anyone is arguing that a rural lifestyle should exist on bikes and trains because that doesn’t make sense. However people who live adjacent to a city and go into the city every day, aren’t living a rural lifestyle. > It's funny, I feel the same way about people who live in small areas and don't have the ability to independently go anywhere they want at any time without having to rely on someone else. The "walkable city" feels like a hellscape archetype for the most captive audience you could ever possibly conceive... These are not mutually exclusive concepts unless you live in Manhattan. I live a 10 minute walk to a subway station that brings me downtown to work. I also have a driveway and a car, and sometimes I drive to the parking garage next to my work. I also drive all over New England on the weekends.

theluketaylor 3y ago

A single subway line in Toronto is 38 km / 24 miles long. A single regional rail line passing through downtown is 114 km / 71 miles long. A 15 mile commute is perfectly achievable on public transit when the facilities exist.

falcolas 3y ago
In the rural US, you'd have maybe 1-2 people per hour who would take said public transit route. Most hours, you'd have zero.
- cooper_ganglia 3y ago
  Yeah, I drive through 3 other towns before even getting to the town I work in. And the town I work in is 10-15 minutes off the "main road" (if you can even call it that, lol) so setting this up with public transport means having an entire bus SOLELY for me. You'd waste more than you'd save. I can't live closer, and my work can't move. These are the realities of living in the country. It's awesome and I wouldn't change it for the world, but stuff is just far apart, no matter what. People really, really do not understand what living rural is like.
  - theluketaylor 3y ago
    > People really, really do not understand what living rural is like. The same criticism applies equally well to rural dwellers about urban life which is why someone rural could be shocked by the idea someone might actively choose to to travel by high quality public transportation. I have lived both rural and urban and actively choose urban. Rural is a fine choice too, but rural dwellers shouldn't expect their energy intensive and economically expensive lifestyle to be subsidized by urban dwellers forever. Maintaining a huge road network with relatively low utilization is massively expensive and western rural life is currently among the most carbon intensive lifestyles.
    - vidanay 3y ago
      Are you hypothesizing that eventually everyone will/should move to urban areas? I don't think that will end up being sustainable either.

colingoodman 3y ago

You're correct that rural life is an exception here, but most Americans don't live in rural areas and I presume that's what the other user is talking about. In many American cities there just aren't good alternative options, you need to spend the money on a car to get around even if you live in a reasonably urban area.