4 ms·

Everything about cars is a scam. Buying, insurance, and infrastructure. If you live somewhere where you have to drive, you are a captive audience. We need other

Everything about cars is a scam. Buying, insurance, and infrastructure. If you live somewhere where you have to drive, you are a captive audience. We need other methods of transportation to compete with cars to reduce overall transportation costs.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
If you live where you have to have a car, no subway's ever going to fix your problem.
gumballindie 3y ago
We also need to reduce the need for transportation. There’s no need for traveling to work for many white-collar jobs, except for propping up highly toxic industries such as commercial real estate, restaurants, oil, and of course car sales and manufacturing.
- gottorf 3y ago
  Maybe we should just reduce the need for white-collar jobs? Since we don't exist in the Metaverse yet, most things that we actually "need" are performed by blue-collar people and almost always involve transporting atoms around. > propping up highly toxic industries such as commercial real estate, restaurants, oil, and of course car sales and manufacturing This reminds me of the assertion that inflation is below 2% now, if we exclude food, energy, shelter, and used cars[0]. Life is great, if we don't meet in person to do work, break bread together, and get ourselves around to provide goods and services? What's left, if you remove the "highly toxic" industries? [0]: https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1712494317024026761 https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1712494317024026761
ravetcofx 3y ago
Preach. I moved somewhere where I could be car free and it's very liberating and one less thing to stress about
xnx 3y ago
Counterpoint: A modern-era, used, non-luxury, vehicle is an amazing value for a precision-engineered product with astounding utility. There are a lot of places in the US you can get to by car, but not by public transit.
- tomcar288 3y ago
  it's a good counterpoint. but basically we're saying the car is a good bandaid for the foolishness of city planning (spacing things way too far apart, having the stores be min of 2 miles from most houses, placing disproportionate office space to housing ratio, nearest library like 4 miles away and yet its the size of an amusement park).
- paxys 3y ago
  Over the last few years used cars have been selling at basically the same price as new (sometimes even more). It is no longer a big money saver to buy used, especially when you factor in increased maintenance/repair costs.
  - xnx 3y ago
    Definitely. Not many deals to be had anymore. A lot of this is due to short supply (supply chain issues with chips, strikes, etc.), but some of it is also due to cars being so much more reliable now (and therefor more valuable even when used).
tomcar288 3y ago
don't forget about registration costs, endless repairs and maintenance, parking costs. I'd love to live in a walkable or bikable area.
chinchilla2020 3y ago
The problem is that people cannot afford to live in city centers. Especially those with families. You would think corporations would finally place their offices in more liveable areas but for some reason they feel the need to build in city centers, and inconvenience their employees.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  There's also a problem with urban planning, zoning & parking req, all of them contributing to less supply of living space
cooper_ganglia 3y ago
"If you live somewhere where you have to drive, you are a captive audience" I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly massive this country is. I have to drive 15 miles to work everyday. If I couldn't drive, I would literally just starve and die (or, I suppose start working as a local farmhand). It's funny, I feel the same way about people who live in small areas and don't have the ability to independently go anywhere they want at any time without having to rely on someone else. The "walkable city" feels like a hellscape archetype for the most captive audience you could ever possibly conceive...
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Every able bodied person can cycle 15 miles. What a shame that people don't even know what their own bodies are capable of. "I would literally starve and die". This is a sad, sad comment. I would laugh but I just find it so sad that you've got all these able bodied adults unable to get around without wheelchairs. Wall-E isn't about the future.
  - vwcx 3y ago
    Some of the most fun I've had outdoors with friends is when they want to try biking (or bikepacking) with me. You're right that people generally have no understanding of what they're capable of (and that no herculean effort is required). I suspect that some of this is a result of humans being increasingly unable to estimate true distances. In my city, it can take 45 minutes to drive 3 miles, so most non-bikers understand 3 miles to be an insurmountable distance.
    - globular-toast 3y ago
      That's a good point. Americans I've met seem to only associate miles with cars. While a British person might say "let's walk, it's only a mile", Americans would say "you can't walk, it's a mile!". Of course, if you do walk a mile then that's a "hike". In British that's also just called a walk.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
spicykraken 3y ago
I think it's fair to say a lot of people bought "too much car" but I completely agree we need better public infrastructure and not be forced to pay the US car tax. Having experienced the public transit systems in Tokyo, Seoul, Singapore, and the midwest US. It's entirely obvious who is failing. Though, despite our short comings, in a lot of cities it _is_ possible to use public transit, I did for years and it sucked and I had to compensate with Uber more often then I would have liked but at least I didn't have a car payment (in hindsight I should have just bought a car, but it was a humbling experience that I don't regret.)
- gottorf 3y ago
  > and not be forced to pay the US car tax > Having experienced the public transit systems in Tokyo, Seoul, Singapore The Seoul Metro, widely considered to be one of the best in the world, also lost like a billion dollars a year for the past decade or so, with the shortfall made up for by taxes. The story is similar for many transit systems around the world as well as around the US. Now, you could argue that it's worth it, but let's at least make sure we know that there is also a public transit tax, as well.
  - mlsu 3y ago
    California, with a population 4x that of Seoul, recieved 25 billion dollars in federal highway funding (plus 2 billion dollars of its own money) for a single year (2021). Highway funding. Not counting roads. That figure, of course, does not include the amount of money that we spent on our cars to drive on those highways. Maintenance. Insurance. Fees. It does not capture deaths from car accidents (over 4,000, children among them) life changing injuries and maimings (many more than 4,000), choking air pollution, the thousands of tons of tire plastic that washed into the Pacific that year, and obviously the carbon emissions, which probably approached a hundred million tons. Smaller things as well; the stress, the noise, billions of hours spent sitting in traffic. The natural environment that was destroyed to build roads and highways. If you spent 4 billion to cut that incomprehensible number by just 10 percent you would come out ahead -- not by a little but by a monstrous lot. Sorry that came off very heated. I really do hate cars, it's not really directed at you.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago

If you live where you have to have a car, no subway's ever going to fix your problem.

gumballindie 3y ago

We also need to reduce the need for transportation. There’s no need for traveling to work for many white-collar jobs, except for propping up highly toxic industries such as commercial real estate, restaurants, oil, and of course car sales and manufacturing.

gottorf 3y ago
Maybe we should just reduce the need for white-collar jobs? Since we don't exist in the Metaverse yet, most things that we actually "need" are performed by blue-collar people and almost always involve transporting atoms around. > propping up highly toxic industries such as commercial real estate, restaurants, oil, and of course car sales and manufacturing This reminds me of the assertion that inflation is below 2% now, if we exclude food, energy, shelter, and used cars[0]. Life is great, if we don't meet in person to do work, break bread together, and get ourselves around to provide goods and services? What's left, if you remove the "highly toxic" industries? [0]: https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1712494317024026761 https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1712494317024026761

ravetcofx 3y ago

Preach. I moved somewhere where I could be car free and it's very liberating and one less thing to stress about

xnx 3y ago

Counterpoint: A modern-era, used, non-luxury, vehicle is an amazing value for a precision-engineered product with astounding utility. There are a lot of places in the US you can get to by car, but not by public transit.

tomcar288 3y ago
it's a good counterpoint. but basically we're saying the car is a good bandaid for the foolishness of city planning (spacing things way too far apart, having the stores be min of 2 miles from most houses, placing disproportionate office space to housing ratio, nearest library like 4 miles away and yet its the size of an amusement park).
paxys 3y ago
Over the last few years used cars have been selling at basically the same price as new (sometimes even more). It is no longer a big money saver to buy used, especially when you factor in increased maintenance/repair costs.
- xnx 3y ago
  Definitely. Not many deals to be had anymore. A lot of this is due to short supply (supply chain issues with chips, strikes, etc.), but some of it is also due to cars being so much more reliable now (and therefor more valuable even when used).

tomcar288 3y ago

don't forget about registration costs, endless repairs and maintenance, parking costs. I'd love to live in a walkable or bikable area.

chinchilla2020 3y ago

The problem is that people cannot afford to live in city centers. Especially those with families. You would think corporations would finally place their offices in more liveable areas but for some reason they feel the need to build in city centers, and inconvenience their employees.

Moldoteck 3y ago
There's also a problem with urban planning, zoning & parking req, all of them contributing to less supply of living space

cooper_ganglia 3y ago

"If you live somewhere where you have to drive, you are a captive audience" I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly massive this country is. I have to drive 15 miles to work everyday. If I couldn't drive, I would literally just starve and die (or, I suppose start working as a local farmhand). It's funny, I feel the same way about people who live in small areas and don't have the ability to independently go anywhere they want at any time without having to rely on someone else. The "walkable city" feels like a hellscape archetype for the most captive audience you could ever possibly conceive...

globular-toast 3y ago
Every able bodied person can cycle 15 miles. What a shame that people don't even know what their own bodies are capable of. "I would literally starve and die". This is a sad, sad comment. I would laugh but I just find it so sad that you've got all these able bodied adults unable to get around without wheelchairs. Wall-E isn't about the future.
- vwcx 3y ago
  Some of the most fun I've had outdoors with friends is when they want to try biking (or bikepacking) with me. You're right that people generally have no understanding of what they're capable of (and that no herculean effort is required). I suspect that some of this is a result of humans being increasingly unable to estimate true distances. In my city, it can take 45 minutes to drive 3 miles, so most non-bikers understand 3 miles to be an insurmountable distance.
  - globular-toast 3y ago
    That's a good point. Americans I've met seem to only associate miles with cars. While a British person might say "let's walk, it's only a mile", Americans would say "you can't walk, it's a mile!". Of course, if you do walk a mile then that's a "hike". In British that's also just called a walk.
Moldoteck 3y ago

spicykraken 3y ago

I think it's fair to say a lot of people bought "too much car" but I completely agree we need better public infrastructure and not be forced to pay the US car tax. Having experienced the public transit systems in Tokyo, Seoul, Singapore, and the midwest US. It's entirely obvious who is failing. Though, despite our short comings, in a lot of cities it _is_ possible to use public transit, I did for years and it sucked and I had to compensate with Uber more often then I would have liked but at least I didn't have a car payment (in hindsight I should have just bought a car, but it was a humbling experience that I don't regret.)

gottorf 3y ago
> and not be forced to pay the US car tax > Having experienced the public transit systems in Tokyo, Seoul, Singapore The Seoul Metro, widely considered to be one of the best in the world, also lost like a billion dollars a year for the past decade or so, with the shortfall made up for by taxes. The story is similar for many transit systems around the world as well as around the US. Now, you could argue that it's worth it, but let's at least make sure we know that there is also a public transit tax, as well.
- mlsu 3y ago
  California, with a population 4x that of Seoul, recieved 25 billion dollars in federal highway funding (plus 2 billion dollars of its own money) for a single year (2021). Highway funding. Not counting roads. That figure, of course, does not include the amount of money that we spent on our cars to drive on those highways. Maintenance. Insurance. Fees. It does not capture deaths from car accidents (over 4,000, children among them) life changing injuries and maimings (many more than 4,000), choking air pollution, the thousands of tons of tire plastic that washed into the Pacific that year, and obviously the carbon emissions, which probably approached a hundred million tons. Smaller things as well; the stress, the noise, billions of hours spent sitting in traffic. The natural environment that was destroyed to build roads and highways. If you spent 4 billion to cut that incomprehensible number by just 10 percent you would come out ahead -- not by a little but by a monstrous lot. Sorry that came off very heated. I really do hate cars, it's not really directed at you.