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> Right to Return I think the right to return is a red herring. Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. But where will they live? The area is tiny to b

> Right to Return I think the right to return is a red herring. Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. But where will they live? The area is tiny to begin with. These aren't rich people who have the ability to live anywhere. I think this can be solved with a reparations settlement. It would be hard since records from the 40s would be problematic by now. Names changed, areas switched hands. But that's probably not the hardest problem here. Jerusalem has always been a problem. I don't have an easy answer about that. Israelis won't budge on that due to the logistics of city division. > another way is the human rights violations as reported by independent bodies (Amnesty, HRW, and even B'Tselem) which can't be merely dismissed as agenda of the Arab states? Those I trust. Mostly B'Tselem who actually do the legwork here. Unfortunately, the UN includes countries like UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with... > Then, he posits the notorious Mandela quip The problem we have here is one of religion. It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization. Although, I do get the distaste towards the current Israeli government and its policies. I share it to a great extent. > Understandable, but their response has been, from what I can tell, to incite Islamophobia. Remind the West that this is "a clash of civilizations". I'd rather relinquish all of Levant to Israel to have it stopped, because the previous wave wasn't at all easy. Yep. Israel has the WORST government in its history. Incompetent. Corrupt. Cowardly and evil. Luckily Biden is smart and experienced enough to gently pull the strings and manipulate the situation. > Sigh. Not to downplay or compare, but such triggers (Shoah v Nakba) exist on both sides, and it seems limitless, this cycle of anguish. When I was 17 just before the Oslo accord I went on a trip to Austria with a group of Jewish and Palestinian youths. We had this "peace forum" where we talked and the Austrian government used that to sort of "shame the adults". Sort of: if kids can reach an agreement, then you can too. As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict. I think the right education, trips like that etc. can really make a difference in the long run. But it requires will on both sides to sit down and talk. Unfortunately, the only people who are willing to sit down and talk are the people who are moderate to begin with. The lunatics remain stupid and ignorant. During the Oslo bombings I was taking a cab and the driver was bemoaning "these Arabs". "They're the only people who do stuff like suicide bombings, it's barbaric". I explained that Bar Cochva was an inspiration to a lot of that. Also mentioned Trumpeldor (who famously said "it's good to die for our country"), Japanese Kamikaze pilots etc. He wasn't pleased... > Don't think the Arab states trust the US... This is very true. Trump did tremendous damage there and the fact that Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse. > I think some hefty compromises are a way forward unless Israel believes it can remain a "security state" forever, and wait out a total Palestine defeat (as in Arabs leaving voluntarily). I think that's what Biden is pushing for. He's supporting Israel seemingly with no strings attached but it's obvious there are strings. Moderation in the combat is one of them. Clear and defined goals is another. > (ps sincere apologies if any of my replies have been inconsiderate / tone-deaf) No. You're good. I think a lot of the problems we see in the middle east is due to ignorance and lack of communication.

ignoramous 3y ago
> Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. I can see why that is; otoh a few Palestinians I've spoken to feel a deep longing for the farms and the lands they lost. This impasse must inform them that their violent struggle (Fidayeen etc) did more harm than good. So much so that, their non-violent struggle is also met with violence. A first step could be for the Israeli government to acknowledge that pain, even if they won't grant them their right (which, personally, I think they should on a case-by-case basis, like how the US hands Green Cards, for instance). > Jerusalem has always been a problem. Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too. The Ottomans established the status quo, but that's all gone. Perhaps, a new status quo can be agreed. Normalization efforts are a great start in that direction. > UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with... They even persecute us, so no objections to that (: > It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization. Not defending him, but to clarify, I believe, Finkelstein is left / far-left? And that he isn't approving of their terror, but he says he can't condemn them as well (which perhaps can be misconstrued as siding with them... very thin ice to stand on) as he sees Gaza as a concentration camp, and Hamas' attacks as a natural outcome of an oppressed people (not my view). > As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict. Yeah the peoples must be humanized in each others eyes: I see Israelis (in tech) latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. The pain and the suffering that can lead to such a world-view (on both the sides) is just unfathomable. May be, via education (like you say) and with time, this will go away. > Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse. Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Sunak's remarks still continue to be. As politicians, I think they understand better than most that the issue of Palestine is emotionally charged unlike any other (this has nothing to do with antisemistism like some claim, but a sense of injustice and loss of pride from being repeatedly trounced across decades in defeats), and equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world. I refuse to believe the policy makers are this out of touch, and so, the only other possible explanation is, they are out of their depth. > Moderation in the combat is one of them. Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The Palestinians aren't sufficiently protected. I don't have a good answer to what else the Israeli government could do, but some have suggested doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy (ex: after the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai, the worst in India's history but not at the scale of 7 Oct, by Pakistan-sponsored militants, India did nothing violent; though, granted Pakistan's nuclear deterrence also plays a role in this). In fact, despite the scale of Israeli response, there already exist vocal factions within the Arab world that vehemently condemn Hamas for summoning this war and unrest, and squarely blame them (not Israelis) for the plight of Gazans. > Clear and defined goals is another. The news has been that there isn't any apart from either driving civilians in to Sinai or destruction of Gaza in a bid to weed-out Hamas; both of which will destabilize the region. Even if there's a ceasefire tomorrow, the worrying part is, how many billions and years are needed for Gaza to even recover from this? There's also the psychological side for the 2million subject to this war. I stumbled upon a video of Israeli bombardment recently, and it truly seemed like apocalypse (https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541 https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541).

ignoramous 3y ago

> Jews are afraid of a mass of people coming in. I can see why that is; otoh a few Palestinians I've spoken to feel a deep longing for the farms and the lands they lost. This impasse must inform them that their violent struggle (Fidayeen etc) did more harm than good. So much so that, their non-violent struggle is also met with violence. A first step could be for the Israeli government to acknowledge that pain, even if they won't grant them their right (which, personally, I think they should on a case-by-case basis, like how the US hands Green Cards, for instance). > Jerusalem has always been a problem. Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too. The Ottomans established the status quo, but that's all gone. Perhaps, a new status quo can be agreed. Normalization efforts are a great start in that direction. > UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with... They even persecute us, so no objections to that (: > It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization. Not defending him, but to clarify, I believe, Finkelstein is left / far-left? And that he isn't approving of their terror, but he says he can't condemn them as well (which perhaps can be misconstrued as siding with them... very thin ice to stand on) as he sees Gaza as a concentration camp, and Hamas' attacks as a natural outcome of an oppressed people (not my view). > As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict. Yeah the peoples must be humanized in each others eyes: I see Israelis (in tech) latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. The pain and the suffering that can lead to such a world-view (on both the sides) is just unfathomable. May be, via education (like you say) and with time, this will go away. > Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse. Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Sunak's remarks still continue to be. As politicians, I think they understand better than most that the issue of Palestine is emotionally charged unlike any other (this has nothing to do with antisemistism like some claim, but a sense of injustice and loss of pride from being repeatedly trounced across decades in defeats), and equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world. I refuse to believe the policy makers are this out of touch, and so, the only other possible explanation is, they are out of their depth. > Moderation in the combat is one of them. Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The Palestinians aren't sufficiently protected. I don't have a good answer to what else the Israeli government could do, but some have suggested doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy (ex: after the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai, the worst in India's history but not at the scale of 7 Oct, by Pakistan-sponsored militants, India did nothing violent; though, granted Pakistan's nuclear deterrence also plays a role in this). In fact, despite the scale of Israeli response, there already exist vocal factions within the Arab world that vehemently condemn Hamas for summoning this war and unrest, and squarely blame them (not Israelis) for the plight of Gazans. > Clear and defined goals is another. The news has been that there isn't any apart from either driving civilians in to Sinai or destruction of Gaza in a bid to weed-out Hamas; both of which will destabilize the region. Even if there's a ceasefire tomorrow, the worrying part is, how many billions and years are needed for Gaza to even recover from this? There's also the psychological side for the 2million subject to this war. I stumbled upon a video of Israeli bombardment recently, and it truly seemed like apocalypse (https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541 https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541).