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If I understand correctly, this is an infusion of cells that are engineered to kill cells with a certain antigen on their surface along with an injection that m

by amluto 3y ago

If I understand correctly, this is an infusion of cells that are engineered to kill cells with a certain antigen on their surface along with an injection that makes some non-cancerous cells express that antigen on their surface. Wouldn’t that result in killing a lot of those cells?

freeone3000 3y ago
Yes. This makes it significantly better than most existing cancer treatments, which simply kill all dividing cells, thereby killing cancer faster since it divides faster. (Specific cancers have better treatments, but those treatments are one-per-very-specific-cancer and sometimes -per-cancer-per-person, which is very expensive and limited and not available for all cancers.) This treatment targets a type of cancer that is very hard to treat otherwise, and can actually treat several types of cancer!
v8xi 3y ago
It's important that the CARVac (mRNA vaccine) part of the treatment targets specifically (though how specific, I dont know) dendritic cells which are "professional" antigen-presenting cells in the immune system. During an immune response, dendritic cells gobble up antigens and present them on their surface to help train the immune system so it's more trying to hijack that (very important) part of the immune response rather than training the immune system (and resulting in the death of the "infected" cells) in the way we're used to understanding mRNA vaccines.
- amluto 3y ago
  Does it target dendritic cells? As far as I know, the mRNA COVID vaccines are rather untargeted and a lot ends up in muscle cells.
  - ibe3 3y ago
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  - ibe3 3y ago
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  - amluto 3y ago
    Downvote all you like, but this has been studied. See, for example, Derek Lowe’s blog: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/mrna-vaccines-what-happens https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/mrna-vaccines-what... Quoting from it: “ And that's what you see with the intramuscular dose as well: a good part of the dose goes to the liver, but in that case there's a substantial effect in the muscle tissue itself, and it's longer-lasting (out to about a week of protein expression)” So, yes, an mRNA vaccine (the current ones, anyway) likely causes a fair amount of Spike protein to be expressed in your muscle tissue, but no one has noticed it causing the death of large amount of muscle tissue [0], and despite some searching, I haven’t found any evidence that anyone really understands what’s going on. [0] People produce cytotoxic lymphocytes that detect bits of spike protein displayed by MHC1, much like CAR-T cells detect whatever they’ve been engineered to target on the surface of cells. Yet CAR-T (sometimes) kills massive numbers of tumor cells, and mRNA COVID vaccines apparently don’t cause the death of massive numbers of harmless cells that took up some of the vaccine. I’m curious why.
    - robbiep 3y ago
      It’s been a while since I’ve been deep in the field, but the basics are you’ve got a first order action and a second order action. T cells in this instance are directly cytotoxic. They find the ligand they bind to, and they begin lysis of the cell to kill it. Meanwhile the intent of the mRNA vaccines that so many of us received over the last several years was to get B cells pumping out immunoglobulins which would soak up virus, reducing severity/duration of illness and allowing time for the bodies other defences to swing into action. They’re not the same mechanisms of action (or at least they don’t rely on the same levers at the same strengths). Like everything in the human body, it’s a stochastic process so bits of everything are happening at once
      - amluto 3y ago
        Regardless of the intent of the vaccines, the evidence is fairly clear that they induce a CD8+ response, and the manufacturers seem fairly proud of this fact. Here a paper I found in a few seconds of searching: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03653-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03653-6 There are plenty more like it.
Moto7451 3y ago
My brother made it through CAR-T but ended up succumbing to the effects of a massive tumor that did not respond to the treatment. Essentially all the soft spots and flare ups in his bones went away, but a hard tumor in his abdomen survived. It grew uncontrolled until his kidneys failed. Part of his treatment was “reseting” his immune system with a leukemia regiment to give the CAR-T a fighting chance to augment the native immune system. I don’t think this new CAR-T would affect the treatment plan, especially since CAR-T is generally prescribed after other treatments fail. CAR-T is a little spooky because sometimes it just kills the patient and they don’t know specifically why. The big win here is that in January of this year they told my brother there was nothing they could do to treat the hard tumor. Maybe next January that conversation goes differently.
- spandrew 3y ago
  Sorry to hear about your brother passing. Hopefully this gives options in future, as you said. Thanks for sharing
CodeNest 3y ago
Yes, it is.

by amluto 3y ago

freeone3000 3y ago

Yes. This makes it significantly better than most existing cancer treatments, which simply kill all dividing cells, thereby killing cancer faster since it divides faster. (Specific cancers have better treatments, but those treatments are one-per-very-specific-cancer and sometimes -per-cancer-per-person, which is very expensive and limited and not available for all cancers.) This treatment targets a type of cancer that is very hard to treat otherwise, and can actually treat several types of cancer!

v8xi 3y ago

It's important that the CARVac (mRNA vaccine) part of the treatment targets specifically (though how specific, I dont know) dendritic cells which are "professional" antigen-presenting cells in the immune system. During an immune response, dendritic cells gobble up antigens and present them on their surface to help train the immune system so it's more trying to hijack that (very important) part of the immune response rather than training the immune system (and resulting in the death of the "infected" cells) in the way we're used to understanding mRNA vaccines.

amluto 3y ago
Does it target dendritic cells? As far as I know, the mRNA COVID vaccines are rather untargeted and a lot ends up in muscle cells.
- ibe3 3y ago
  [dead]
- ibe3 3y ago
  [dead]
- amluto 3y ago
  Downvote all you like, but this has been studied. See, for example, Derek Lowe’s blog: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/mrna-vaccines-what-happens https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/mrna-vaccines-what... Quoting from it: “ And that's what you see with the intramuscular dose as well: a good part of the dose goes to the liver, but in that case there's a substantial effect in the muscle tissue itself, and it's longer-lasting (out to about a week of protein expression)” So, yes, an mRNA vaccine (the current ones, anyway) likely causes a fair amount of Spike protein to be expressed in your muscle tissue, but no one has noticed it causing the death of large amount of muscle tissue [0], and despite some searching, I haven’t found any evidence that anyone really understands what’s going on. [0] People produce cytotoxic lymphocytes that detect bits of spike protein displayed by MHC1, much like CAR-T cells detect whatever they’ve been engineered to target on the surface of cells. Yet CAR-T (sometimes) kills massive numbers of tumor cells, and mRNA COVID vaccines apparently don’t cause the death of massive numbers of harmless cells that took up some of the vaccine. I’m curious why.
  - robbiep 3y ago
    It’s been a while since I’ve been deep in the field, but the basics are you’ve got a first order action and a second order action. T cells in this instance are directly cytotoxic. They find the ligand they bind to, and they begin lysis of the cell to kill it. Meanwhile the intent of the mRNA vaccines that so many of us received over the last several years was to get B cells pumping out immunoglobulins which would soak up virus, reducing severity/duration of illness and allowing time for the bodies other defences to swing into action. They’re not the same mechanisms of action (or at least they don’t rely on the same levers at the same strengths). Like everything in the human body, it’s a stochastic process so bits of everything are happening at once
    - amluto 3y ago
      Regardless of the intent of the vaccines, the evidence is fairly clear that they induce a CD8+ response, and the manufacturers seem fairly proud of this fact. Here a paper I found in a few seconds of searching: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03653-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03653-6 There are plenty more like it.

Moto7451 3y ago

My brother made it through CAR-T but ended up succumbing to the effects of a massive tumor that did not respond to the treatment. Essentially all the soft spots and flare ups in his bones went away, but a hard tumor in his abdomen survived. It grew uncontrolled until his kidneys failed. Part of his treatment was “reseting” his immune system with a leukemia regiment to give the CAR-T a fighting chance to augment the native immune system. I don’t think this new CAR-T would affect the treatment plan, especially since CAR-T is generally prescribed after other treatments fail. CAR-T is a little spooky because sometimes it just kills the patient and they don’t know specifically why. The big win here is that in January of this year they told my brother there was nothing they could do to treat the hard tumor. Maybe next January that conversation goes differently.

spandrew 3y ago
Sorry to hear about your brother passing. Hopefully this gives options in future, as you said. Thanks for sharing

CodeNest 3y ago

Yes, it is.