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But this doesn't answer the question as to where firms go if they want to license a core rather than design in-house. Arm grew in large part because firms decid

But this doesn't answer the question as to where firms go if they want to license a core rather than design in-house. Arm grew in large part because firms decided that designing CPUs cores wasn't a central competency and Arm would do a better job. And for a long time even a firm with the resources of Qualcomm couldn't outperform Arm. Maybe (say) Tenstorrent will take up the mantle but just saying that 'the industry will drive it' doesn't really describe how Arm gets replaced.

lizknope 3y ago
> And for a long time even a firm with the resources of Qualcomm couldn't outperform Arm. For a long time (around 2010 to 2016) the internally developed Qualcomm ARM core did outperform the cores you could license from ARM. Qualcomm's internal team fell behind and then Qualcomm started licensing the standard ARM designed cores. Now Qualcomm acquired Nuvia and wants to develop their own custom cores again. We will see how it goes. Most of the old Qualcomm ARM CPU team went to Microsoft for a few years, got laid off, and now actually work for ARM.
- klelatti 3y ago
  Thanks for the correction / clarification. I agree 2016-2021 isn't really a long time! Of course the Qualcomm's use of Nuvia cores is subject to the ongoing legal case so it's difficult to see how that will work out.
  - hajile 3y ago
    Qualcomm's Znew proposal is basically an attempt to skirt ARM royalties while keeping a design that is very close to ARM64 (basically, throw out 16-bit instructions then add some new modes and complex 32-bit instructions ARM uses to make up for it). This smells of them trying to convert Nuvia from ARM to RISC-V so the entire Nuvia case basically goes away before they get forced to pay out a lot of money.
    - klelatti 3y ago
      Arm's case isn't about the ISA, it's about use of IP developed by Nuvia with help from Arm under Nuvia's Arm license being used in a way that isn't compatible with the terms of Nuvia's license. IANAL but I'd be astonished if they get away with that IP making its way into RISC-V designs, if Arm win. Plus, they won't have anything RISC-V based available in anywhere near the required timescales. They're still arguing about the ISA after all!
      - hajile 3y ago
        ARM's case is that a uarch is necessarily tied to its ISA and that their license isn't transferrable because the contract plainly says so. If Qualcomm can show up and say "here's our uarch running a different ISA", it disproves that point and at most leaves dispute about some patents where Qualcomm can probably get a quick settlement for far less than the royalties would cost them. The whole point of Znew is to transform RISC-V into something so similar to ARM64 that they can swap out the decoder and be good to go.
  - lizknope 3y ago
    Qualcomm was still developing a 32-bit ARM core and then Apple came out with their internally developed 64-bit ARM CPU and surprised everyone. This Qualcomm exec got shoved aside after making this statement. https://www.pcworld.com/article/447916/apples-64bit-a7-chip-a-marketing-gimmick-qualcomm-exec-says.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/447916/apples-64bit-a7-chip-... Qualcomm quickly switched to licensing a 64-bit core from ARM which was the Snapdragon 810 that had overheating problems. After that the next Snapdragon 820 with Qualcomm's internally developed 64-bit CPU was fine. That same team was also developing their ARM server CPU but that whole project got cancelled and the team got let go around 2018.
    - wmf 3y ago
      But then every generation after the 820 used a Cortex core so their in-house core only lasted one year.
      - lizknope 3y ago
        Yeah, that team switched exclusively to the server chip which was cancelled a few years later and they laid off 500 engineers in that team.
thereddaikon 3y ago
Decoupling the ownership of the ISA from ownership of the silicon means chip makers can compete more openly. Anyone with chip design capabilities can design and market their own premade RISC-V cores or offer custom silicon design services. With ARM they acted as a gatekeeper through their licenses. Anyone who wanted to design ARM based chips needed a license and their licensing structure has gotten more complicated and expensive over the years.
- klelatti 3y ago
  Sorry, this completely misses the point that many firms don't want to design their own CPUs, which is why Arm became so successful in the first place.
  - thereddaikon 3y ago
    No I'm not missing that point. My point is Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, whoever doesn't have to pay a gatekeeper a license fee to design RISC-V cpus. They are also free to design and sell premade cores similar to how ARM does it today, Sans ISA license structure.
    - klelatti 3y ago
      > Free to sell pre-made cores You do know that Arm makes a tiny amount on each core licensed and that none of the firms you mention will have any interest in that business model. If they’ve spent a lot of money on a competitive design they will not be handing to competitors for peanuts.
      - thereddaikon 3y ago
        Are you saying Qualcomm doesn't have interest in selling cpus to customers without paying a third party a licensing fee? That doesn't make any sense. Companies are always interested in lowering their overheads.
        3y ago

lizknope 3y ago

> And for a long time even a firm with the resources of Qualcomm couldn't outperform Arm. For a long time (around 2010 to 2016) the internally developed Qualcomm ARM core did outperform the cores you could license from ARM. Qualcomm's internal team fell behind and then Qualcomm started licensing the standard ARM designed cores. Now Qualcomm acquired Nuvia and wants to develop their own custom cores again. We will see how it goes. Most of the old Qualcomm ARM CPU team went to Microsoft for a few years, got laid off, and now actually work for ARM.

klelatti 3y ago
Thanks for the correction / clarification. I agree 2016-2021 isn't really a long time! Of course the Qualcomm's use of Nuvia cores is subject to the ongoing legal case so it's difficult to see how that will work out.
- hajile 3y ago
  Qualcomm's Znew proposal is basically an attempt to skirt ARM royalties while keeping a design that is very close to ARM64 (basically, throw out 16-bit instructions then add some new modes and complex 32-bit instructions ARM uses to make up for it). This smells of them trying to convert Nuvia from ARM to RISC-V so the entire Nuvia case basically goes away before they get forced to pay out a lot of money.
  - klelatti 3y ago
    Arm's case isn't about the ISA, it's about use of IP developed by Nuvia with help from Arm under Nuvia's Arm license being used in a way that isn't compatible with the terms of Nuvia's license. IANAL but I'd be astonished if they get away with that IP making its way into RISC-V designs, if Arm win. Plus, they won't have anything RISC-V based available in anywhere near the required timescales. They're still arguing about the ISA after all!
    - hajile 3y ago
      ARM's case is that a uarch is necessarily tied to its ISA and that their license isn't transferrable because the contract plainly says so. If Qualcomm can show up and say "here's our uarch running a different ISA", it disproves that point and at most leaves dispute about some patents where Qualcomm can probably get a quick settlement for far less than the royalties would cost them. The whole point of Znew is to transform RISC-V into something so similar to ARM64 that they can swap out the decoder and be good to go.
- lizknope 3y ago
  Qualcomm was still developing a 32-bit ARM core and then Apple came out with their internally developed 64-bit ARM CPU and surprised everyone. This Qualcomm exec got shoved aside after making this statement. https://www.pcworld.com/article/447916/apples-64bit-a7-chip-a-marketing-gimmick-qualcomm-exec-says.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/447916/apples-64bit-a7-chip-... Qualcomm quickly switched to licensing a 64-bit core from ARM which was the Snapdragon 810 that had overheating problems. After that the next Snapdragon 820 with Qualcomm's internally developed 64-bit CPU was fine. That same team was also developing their ARM server CPU but that whole project got cancelled and the team got let go around 2018.
  - wmf 3y ago
    But then every generation after the 820 used a Cortex core so their in-house core only lasted one year.
    - lizknope 3y ago
      Yeah, that team switched exclusively to the server chip which was cancelled a few years later and they laid off 500 engineers in that team.

thereddaikon 3y ago

Decoupling the ownership of the ISA from ownership of the silicon means chip makers can compete more openly. Anyone with chip design capabilities can design and market their own premade RISC-V cores or offer custom silicon design services. With ARM they acted as a gatekeeper through their licenses. Anyone who wanted to design ARM based chips needed a license and their licensing structure has gotten more complicated and expensive over the years.

klelatti 3y ago
Sorry, this completely misses the point that many firms don't want to design their own CPUs, which is why Arm became so successful in the first place.
- thereddaikon 3y ago
  No I'm not missing that point. My point is Qualcomm, Samsung, Intel, whoever doesn't have to pay a gatekeeper a license fee to design RISC-V cpus. They are also free to design and sell premade cores similar to how ARM does it today, Sans ISA license structure.
  - klelatti 3y ago
    > Free to sell pre-made cores You do know that Arm makes a tiny amount on each core licensed and that none of the firms you mention will have any interest in that business model. If they’ve spent a lot of money on a competitive design they will not be handing to competitors for peanuts.
    - thereddaikon 3y ago
      Are you saying Qualcomm doesn't have interest in selling cpus to customers without paying a third party a licensing fee? That doesn't make any sense. Companies are always interested in lowering their overheads.
      - 3y ago