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Are you unfamiliar with the oppression Palestinians experience? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apar

by Kudos 3y ago

Are you unfamiliar with the oppression Palestinians experience? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

xdennis 3y ago
18% of Israelis are Muslim. How many Jews are allowed in Gaza?
- Kudos 3y ago
  Are you trying to suggest that it's the Jews who are oppressed?
  - xdennis 3y ago
    I'm saying that it's ridiculous to say it's an apartheid state when Israel has Muslims with full citizenship, but if Jew crossed into Gaza unarmed he would be slaughtered on the spot. Palestine is an apartheid state. Israel is not.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      The better metric would be how many Arabs, including in the occupied territories, are Israelian citizens. By the way, apartheid doesn't depend on citizenship per se.
      - shiroiuma 3y ago
        AFAICT, the West Bank could be called "an occupied territory", but Gaza definitely cannot. I don't know why people keep repeating this: Israel pulled out of Gaza 17 years ago and let it govern itself. A place can't be "occupied" when you don't have soldiers there and you're not administering the place.
        hef19898 3y ago
        How much self government do you really have when you are under embargoe by all neighbouring states, are not recognized as sovereign nation and depend dor basix essentials (water, fuel...) on the former occupier? It is an occupation by all measures but name.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        How is it Israel's fault that they're embargoed by other neighboring states? And what's been keeping all the other states from supplying those basic essentials? Last I heard, they got a lot of humanitarian supplies from many other countries worldwide, even as far away as Japan. AFAICT, Israel would rather just not deal with them at all. Countries shouldn't be forced to annex their neighbors and administer them. Didn't they even try to get Egypt to take Gaza back, and Egypt refused? I'm sorry, this doesn't fit the definition of "occupation" at all.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Gaza is described, by Amnesty International and the Norwegian Refugee Council, as the world largest open air prison. It depends for all life necessities on Israel and has all of two neighbours, Israel and Egypt. The former being also the former occupier which refuses to lift the embargoe and prevents Gazans from participating in normal life in Israel, incl. working there. All Israel did to technically not make it an occupation is to withdraw troops, getting rid of that cost and risk. They did not so get rid of accountability and responsibility. That situation is the perfect breeding ground for extremism. Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular, regardless of the excuses Israel finds.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        Why should they be obligated to allow Gazans to participate in normal life in Israel? They're de-facto two separate countries. Why isn't Egypt getting the same criticism? They could do the same, but they don't. And there are many other Arab nations in the region that, while not directly bordering Gaza, could help out if they wanted. Iran does (though not Arab), but they provide them with weapons. Before the attack, Israel was issuing work permits to Gazans to let them work and earn badly-needed money in Israel; so much for that. I can see why Israel doesn't want Gazans participating in normal life there: they keep shooting rockets at them. And after the latest atrocity, they'll probably never entertain the idea of good relations with them. Is Korea an "apartheid state" because North and South Korea refuse to let each other's citizens "participate in normal life" on the other side of the DMZ? >Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular It seems like the reverse to me: their actions in the West Bank continue to be wrong and cause problems (illegal settlements). But I don't see how they've done anything wrong in Gaza in 17 years: they simply don't want that group of people in their country, and they have that right. Also, why is it that people like you never criticize Egypt for not taking in the Gazans? There's really nothing stopping Egypt from annexing Gaza.
    - jskrn 3y ago
      Full citizenship? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citiz...
- sharno 3y ago
  Have you read the linked page? > Adam and Moodley cite the marriage law as an example of how Arab Israelis "resemble in many ways 'Colored' and Indian South Africans".[237] They write: "Both Israeli Palestinians and Colored and Indian South Africans are restricted to second-class citizen status when another ethnic group monopolizes state power, treats the minorities as intrinsically suspect, and legally prohibits their access to land or allocates civil service positions or per capita expenditure on education differentially between dominant and minority citizens."

by Kudos 3y ago

Are you unfamiliar with the oppression Palestinians experience? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid

xdennis 3y ago

18% of Israelis are Muslim. How many Jews are allowed in Gaza?

Kudos 3y ago
Are you trying to suggest that it's the Jews who are oppressed?
- xdennis 3y ago
  I'm saying that it's ridiculous to say it's an apartheid state when Israel has Muslims with full citizenship, but if Jew crossed into Gaza unarmed he would be slaughtered on the spot. Palestine is an apartheid state. Israel is not.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    The better metric would be how many Arabs, including in the occupied territories, are Israelian citizens. By the way, apartheid doesn't depend on citizenship per se.
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      AFAICT, the West Bank could be called "an occupied territory", but Gaza definitely cannot. I don't know why people keep repeating this: Israel pulled out of Gaza 17 years ago and let it govern itself. A place can't be "occupied" when you don't have soldiers there and you're not administering the place.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        How much self government do you really have when you are under embargoe by all neighbouring states, are not recognized as sovereign nation and depend dor basix essentials (water, fuel...) on the former occupier? It is an occupation by all measures but name.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        How is it Israel's fault that they're embargoed by other neighboring states? And what's been keeping all the other states from supplying those basic essentials? Last I heard, they got a lot of humanitarian supplies from many other countries worldwide, even as far away as Japan. AFAICT, Israel would rather just not deal with them at all. Countries shouldn't be forced to annex their neighbors and administer them. Didn't they even try to get Egypt to take Gaza back, and Egypt refused? I'm sorry, this doesn't fit the definition of "occupation" at all.
        hef19898 3y ago
        Gaza is described, by Amnesty International and the Norwegian Refugee Council, as the world largest open air prison. It depends for all life necessities on Israel and has all of two neighbours, Israel and Egypt. The former being also the former occupier which refuses to lift the embargoe and prevents Gazans from participating in normal life in Israel, incl. working there. All Israel did to technically not make it an occupation is to withdraw troops, getting rid of that cost and risk. They did not so get rid of accountability and responsibility. That situation is the perfect breeding ground for extremism. Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular, regardless of the excuses Israel finds.
        shiroiuma 3y ago
        Why should they be obligated to allow Gazans to participate in normal life in Israel? They're de-facto two separate countries. Why isn't Egypt getting the same criticism? They could do the same, but they don't. And there are many other Arab nations in the region that, while not directly bordering Gaza, could help out if they wanted. Iran does (though not Arab), but they provide them with weapons. Before the attack, Israel was issuing work permits to Gazans to let them work and earn badly-needed money in Israel; so much for that. I can see why Israel doesn't want Gazans participating in normal life there: they keep shooting rockets at them. And after the latest atrocity, they'll probably never entertain the idea of good relations with them. Is Korea an "apartheid state" because North and South Korea refuse to let each other's citizens "participate in normal life" on the other side of the DMZ? >Israel is not at all innocent in the FUBAR that is the middle east and Gaza in particular It seems like the reverse to me: their actions in the West Bank continue to be wrong and cause problems (illegal settlements). But I don't see how they've done anything wrong in Gaza in 17 years: they simply don't want that group of people in their country, and they have that right. Also, why is it that people like you never criticize Egypt for not taking in the Gazans? There's really nothing stopping Egypt from annexing Gaza.
  - jskrn 3y ago
    Full citizenship? https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citiz...
sharno 3y ago
Have you read the linked page? > Adam and Moodley cite the marriage law as an example of how Arab Israelis "resemble in many ways 'Colored' and Indian South Africans".[237] They write: "Both Israeli Palestinians and Colored and Indian South Africans are restricted to second-class citizen status when another ethnic group monopolizes state power, treats the minorities as intrinsically suspect, and legally prohibits their access to land or allocates civil service positions or per capita expenditure on education differentially between dominant and minority citizens."