3 ms·

Is the "detained without a lawyer" thing actually true in the UK? It was my understanding in the US, that's a pretty concrete feature, and law enforcement can'

Is the "detained without a lawyer" thing actually true in the UK? It was my understanding in the US, that's a pretty concrete feature, and law enforcement can't actually compel you to do anything without a trip through the courts.

gerikson 3y ago
My understanding is that Schedule 7 applies at points of entry to the UK, where you have limited rights even as a citizen. Edit more info from the Scottish police (the institution in question): https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/how-we-do-it/schedule-7-of-the-terrorism-act-2000-data/ https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/how-we-do-it/schedul...
lucozade 3y ago
Under Section 7 of the Terrorism Act you can be detained for up to an hour without access to legal advice. That's very likely why they were so diligent in keeping it to an hour.
sandworm101 3y ago
>> enforcement can't actually compel you to do anything without a trip through the courts. In theory, but there are so many exceptions that it isn't really a thing in practice. Driving a car? You have to identify yourself. Crossing a boarder? You are open to total inspection. Using a credit card, your transaction is open to inspection and you need to identify. Called as a witness? You have to participate by answering questions. You can even be imprisoned, for years, as a "material witness" without any hint of accusation. They sometimes do need a "trip through the courts" but that doesn't mean you are going to be part of that trip, or even know about it until after the warrants have been issued. The list of exemptions from the default rules allowing silence are so long as to make them meaningless.
fullarr 3y ago
Google Chicago PD blacksites It's a feature they aren't afraid of ignoring
- twic 3y ago
  If the UK authorities are extraordinarily rendering people to Chicago, that would be quite something. Rwanda was bad enough.
  - formerly_proven 3y ago
    Take him to detroit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4a-oxOndo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4a-oxOndo
londons_explore 3y ago
Yes, in the UK you can be detained for 36 hours without the right to a lawyer, or 48 hours for suspected terrorism cases. During that time, you can be questioned, and if you do not answer, then your lack of answer can be used by a court to infer guilt ("why did you not say you were just out walking your dog when first asked?").
- semanticist 3y ago
  "You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence." (The 'Police Caution', see: https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights ) This is, as I understand it, very different to the US right against self-incrimination where the courts are specifically not allowed to infer guilt from silence. (Although I suspect many juries may be influenced negatively by someone remaining silent, despite direction.)
  - mnw21cam 3y ago
    Except (as I hear it) that's not even true in the US. Apparently, it's not enough to stay silent - you actually have to say that you are exercising the right to be silent, otherwise they are allowed to infer guilt from silence. In a very similar way, if I were ever detained in this manner in the UK, I'd be very likely to say "I am not refusing right now to answer your questions. However, since I cannot trust you to tell me the truth about my rights and responsibilities, and because of the power imbalance, I will wait until I have independent legal advice before participating any further in this interview".
    - zardo 3y ago
      Even the right to a lawyer has been denied because a judge chose to endorse a police interpretation of "I want a lawyer dawg" as a nonsense request for a dog-attourney.
    - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
      I think you can politely stick to "I'd like to wait for a lawyer please." Less is more. Except if questioned under schedule 7 of the terrorism act of 2000, maybe. IANAL. Ask an actual lawyer for advice!

gerikson 3y ago

My understanding is that Schedule 7 applies at points of entry to the UK, where you have limited rights even as a citizen. Edit more info from the Scottish police (the institution in question): https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/how-we-do-it/schedule-7-of-the-terrorism-act-2000-data/ https://www.scotland.police.uk/about-us/how-we-do-it/schedul...

lucozade 3y ago

Under Section 7 of the Terrorism Act you can be detained for up to an hour without access to legal advice. That's very likely why they were so diligent in keeping it to an hour.

sandworm101 3y ago

>> enforcement can't actually compel you to do anything without a trip through the courts. In theory, but there are so many exceptions that it isn't really a thing in practice. Driving a car? You have to identify yourself. Crossing a boarder? You are open to total inspection. Using a credit card, your transaction is open to inspection and you need to identify. Called as a witness? You have to participate by answering questions. You can even be imprisoned, for years, as a "material witness" without any hint of accusation. They sometimes do need a "trip through the courts" but that doesn't mean you are going to be part of that trip, or even know about it until after the warrants have been issued. The list of exemptions from the default rules allowing silence are so long as to make them meaningless.

fullarr 3y ago

Google Chicago PD blacksites It's a feature they aren't afraid of ignoring

twic 3y ago
If the UK authorities are extraordinarily rendering people to Chicago, that would be quite something. Rwanda was bad enough.
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  Take him to detroit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4a-oxOndo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny4a-oxOndo

londons_explore 3y ago

Yes, in the UK you can be detained for 36 hours without the right to a lawyer, or 48 hours for suspected terrorism cases. During that time, you can be questioned, and if you do not answer, then your lack of answer can be used by a court to infer guilt ("why did you not say you were just out walking your dog when first asked?").

semanticist 3y ago
"You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence." (The 'Police Caution', see: https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights ) This is, as I understand it, very different to the US right against self-incrimination where the courts are specifically not allowed to infer guilt from silence. (Although I suspect many juries may be influenced negatively by someone remaining silent, despite direction.)
- mnw21cam 3y ago
  Except (as I hear it) that's not even true in the US. Apparently, it's not enough to stay silent - you actually have to say that you are exercising the right to be silent, otherwise they are allowed to infer guilt from silence. In a very similar way, if I were ever detained in this manner in the UK, I'd be very likely to say "I am not refusing right now to answer your questions. However, since I cannot trust you to tell me the truth about my rights and responsibilities, and because of the power imbalance, I will wait until I have independent legal advice before participating any further in this interview".
  - zardo 3y ago
    Even the right to a lawyer has been denied because a judge chose to endorse a police interpretation of "I want a lawyer dawg" as a nonsense request for a dog-attourney.
  - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
    I think you can politely stick to "I'd like to wait for a lawyer please." Less is more. Except if questioned under schedule 7 of the terrorism act of 2000, maybe. IANAL. Ask an actual lawyer for advice!