6 ms·

As far as the risks, I have a friend who's been "microdosing" acid and shrooms for a while, and recently had a legitimate psychotic break, thinking all of her l

As far as the risks, I have a friend who's been "microdosing" acid and shrooms for a while, and recently had a legitimate psychotic break, thinking all of her life-long friends were in some kind of Truman Show-esque grand conspiracy against her. She ditched town and cut us all off for over a month. I can't say the drug use caused it, but I and the rest of her friends are of the opinion that it contributed (we all have experience with psychedelics, mostly in our younger days). We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions. She's in a group of friends who follow Phish around, and it's basically part of their identity. She's doing better now, but still thinks she's in some kind of a stimulation, and has described feeling like she's on a never-ending acid trip. She's always been one of my most solid friends, and this came completely out of left field. We can't get her to see any psychiatrists who would want to put her on anti-psychotics (which is basically all of them). So we just tell her we love her, and try to convince her that if this is all a big simulation, we're not in on it either.

valec 3y ago
is she bipolar by any chance? if not, does she have a family history of bipolar or schizophrenia? or, does she have any cluster-b personality disorders?
- suzzer99 3y ago
  She's not bipolar. I don't know family history other than her brother is an addict and her mom posts 20 political memes a day on FB that venture into conspiratorial stuff (but that describes a lot of people I know). The only signs we can come up with were a few times going back 20 years, either at a party (drugs) or a canoe trip (drugs) where she thought people were talking about her/plotting against her. I wasn't on the canoe trip, but I always believed her that some people in another group of friends we know were mercilessly cruel to her. Now I tend to think it was a manifestation of whatever this is. Other than that she's been one of my most solid friends and always had her shit together, very successful career, someone I would call when I needed life advice, etc.
  - swell36 3y ago
    I know someone who had a lesser but similar episode after taking shrooms for the first time. It was about a week of paranoid delusions (The Truman Show came up a few times). After he snapped out of it, he totally turned his life around; went from a very phlegmatic personality to totally type A, got his degree, and now owns several businesses. The human brain is just so complex.
    - suzzer99 3y ago
      That's uplifting to hear. So far my friend has seemed more or less okay for a couple months. Fingers crossed. I honestly had no idea if these things could just go away on their own. It sounds like it's possible at least.
ChatGTP 3y ago
I can't say the drug use caused it, but I and the rest of her friends are of the opinion that it contributed (we all have experience with psychedelics, mostly in our younger days) I mean a cup of coffee might push the wrong person over the edge if they’re already in the midst or about to enter a serious mental health crisis? Of course you’d have to assume a psychoactive substance might contribute but maybe not? I’ve had serious depressive stints of existential crisis where the world felt like it was telling me I don’t need to exist anymore and I’ve had them before and I’ve had them before and after smoking pot, did it contribute maybe ? Maybe not. I’ve smoked pot since and never had the same symptoms.
- suzzer99 3y ago
  Yeah your brain is really good at lying to you when you're depressed. I know that's part of what she's been going through.
- achenet 3y ago
  okay, this is probably going to very weird, but I've actually had two "no-self"/"ego-death" experiences whilst on drugs (I also meditate daily, but have not have an ego-dissolution from meditation, although I've had some trippy stuff happen). I feel like that whole "world feeling it was telling you you didn't need to exist anymore" may have been it trying to point to you towards a no-self experience, which can actually be a very beautiful experience, where the 'you' experiencing reality fades away and there is just reality. I hope this comment was okay with you, and I apologize if it disturbed you. Still, if you've got nothing better to do with your time, no-self may be something to look into.
  - ChatGTP 3y ago
    Actually, what I didn't mention is, the whole thing turned out really positive for me because I didn't self-harm, but I kind of came to a similar peaceful conclusion, but through studying philosophy. At some point I kind of just agreed with this new idea and have been running with it since. Buddhism often tells you to let your pain and suffering be your guide, and it works,at least in my experience. Thanks for your thoughtful response.
uoaei 3y ago
> We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions. It's pretty easy to slip into this. I don't have a good answer for solving this but criminalization is definitely a bad answer, so we will have to find a way to discourage such tendencies. It may be that it is mostly or entirely a cultural thing in which case public understanding of the drug is a prerequisite, so I'm glad more are starting to learn about it as a result of decriminalization and legalization. I hope she can find some way to be comfortable again.
- hunter2_ 3y ago
  Could this be the manifestation of an overdose? I'm not a medical professional, but this got me curious what the "LD99" would be for avoiding this (not literally lethal, but long term dibilitation), or if it's statistically unclear?
  - tpm 3y ago
    It's very very unclear. One person can hit heroic doses (200-1000 micrograms of LSD or equivalent of mushrooms) and be completely fine afterwards, another can have a small, usually safe dose and have long-term issues. There are studies done to detect who will be susceptible to this, but there is no clear answer yet (aside from people with family history of bipolar or schizophrenia).
  - hallway_monitor 3y ago
    More likely too frequent use. Psychedelics twist reality, doing them too often definitely leaves a mark. Eventually you have trouble telling what's real and what's not even when you're sober.
- suzzer99 3y ago
  Yeah I'm not arguing shrooms should be illegal. I don't think they're any worse than pot, and actually are the one drug I think everyone should do. But I think there are some serious risks to heavy, prolonged use that probably aren't well-studied or understood. Also for all I know her problems stem from the acid and not the shrooms.
deleted 3y ago
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HKH2 3y ago
Well, it is a big simulation. She's discovered Plato's cave firsthand; no way could any brain handle the constant barrage from the senses. Once you start tripping you see that we are tripping all the time but we filter most of it out, thank goodness. Feeling like time is looping is pretty freaky regardless; once your mind starts short circuiting and you start heavily believing in symbols, patterns, alignment etc., it gets pretty scary. I think the best you can do is be a calm friend and imagine you're dealing with a two year old without being condescending.
nicoburns 3y ago
My experience is that I’ve seen this happen a lot to people who take psychedelics frequently (say, multiple times a month over a prolonged period). Whereas this seems to be rare with infrequent use at moderate dosages.
richardbatty 3y ago
There are organisations that work with people who have had challanging psychedelic experiences, but without taking the psychiatric approach. One such project is: https://zendoproject.org/ https://zendoproject.org/ You could also try contacting https://challengingpsychedelicexperiences.com/ https://challengingpsychedelicexperiences.com/ There are also therapists who work with people before and after psychedelic experiences, called psychedelic integration therapists. They usually have legit mainstream psychotherapy qualifications. There are also integration circles where people support each other. For example, https://acerintegration.com/ https://acerintegration.com/ This was set up by a researcher in psychedelics. Not sure if it would be appropriate for someone experiencing psychosis though. You could also try contacting the researcher directly for recommendations: https://www.drrosalindwatts.com/ https://www.drrosalindwatts.com/ There are also forums where you could ask for advice, e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/ https://old.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/ They might be able to point you to other resources like this in your area.
- suzzer99 3y ago
  Thank you. I have saved all of this for if this thing comes roaring back. Right now things seem more or less okay. Another contributing factor in all this is she lost her job, which gave her a lot of satisfaction. She has savings, so she's not hurting for money. But sitting around all day in her head and getting depressed isn't good.
PawgerZ 3y ago
> We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions Do you know how frequent the macrodosing became? I have never seen or heard (anecdotal) of microdosing leading to a psychotic break. But frequent use (more than once every three weeks) of large quantities will almost certainly harm you in the long run.
- suzzer99 3y ago
  The last time we hung out before all this went down, we had a few drinks then she broke out the acid, saying we would just microdose and it would be mostly like a really strong cup of coffee. Of course we ended up doing another microdose, which I'd estimate ended up at about 1/4 of a serious acid trip. I assume stuff like that happens a lot in her Phish group. Other times we've hung out at a party she's broken acid/e/shrooms out and I'm thinking, "We're not 25 anymore, we don't have to do this." At the time I kind of admired her for still being willing to go to those deeply introspective trippy places, whereas I'd rather just get a nice buzz and not plumb the depths of my soul. But now I'm thinking it's probably a good thing to hang that stuff up after a while, or at least not keep doing it regularly.
  - PawgerZ 3y ago
    Thank you for sharing your experiences; I'm sure it's hard to see your friend go down that road. From my experience, the psychedelics will "tell you" to slow down, but it's up to the individual to make that choice.
sibeliuss 3y ago
Honest Q: How much weed does she smoke? Because if she smokes a considerable amount then that is certainly more likely than the psychedelics to be a factor.
- suzzer99 3y ago
  I don't think she's a huge weed smoker.

valec 3y ago

is she bipolar by any chance? if not, does she have a family history of bipolar or schizophrenia? or, does she have any cluster-b personality disorders?

suzzer99 3y ago
She's not bipolar. I don't know family history other than her brother is an addict and her mom posts 20 political memes a day on FB that venture into conspiratorial stuff (but that describes a lot of people I know). The only signs we can come up with were a few times going back 20 years, either at a party (drugs) or a canoe trip (drugs) where she thought people were talking about her/plotting against her. I wasn't on the canoe trip, but I always believed her that some people in another group of friends we know were mercilessly cruel to her. Now I tend to think it was a manifestation of whatever this is. Other than that she's been one of my most solid friends and always had her shit together, very successful career, someone I would call when I needed life advice, etc.
- swell36 3y ago
  I know someone who had a lesser but similar episode after taking shrooms for the first time. It was about a week of paranoid delusions (The Truman Show came up a few times). After he snapped out of it, he totally turned his life around; went from a very phlegmatic personality to totally type A, got his degree, and now owns several businesses. The human brain is just so complex.
  - suzzer99 3y ago
    That's uplifting to hear. So far my friend has seemed more or less okay for a couple months. Fingers crossed. I honestly had no idea if these things could just go away on their own. It sounds like it's possible at least.

ChatGTP 3y ago

I can't say the drug use caused it, but I and the rest of her friends are of the opinion that it contributed (we all have experience with psychedelics, mostly in our younger days) I mean a cup of coffee might push the wrong person over the edge if they’re already in the midst or about to enter a serious mental health crisis? Of course you’d have to assume a psychoactive substance might contribute but maybe not? I’ve had serious depressive stints of existential crisis where the world felt like it was telling me I don’t need to exist anymore and I’ve had them before and I’ve had them before and after smoking pot, did it contribute maybe ? Maybe not. I’ve smoked pot since and never had the same symptoms.

suzzer99 3y ago
Yeah your brain is really good at lying to you when you're depressed. I know that's part of what she's been going through.
achenet 3y ago
okay, this is probably going to very weird, but I've actually had two "no-self"/"ego-death" experiences whilst on drugs (I also meditate daily, but have not have an ego-dissolution from meditation, although I've had some trippy stuff happen). I feel like that whole "world feeling it was telling you you didn't need to exist anymore" may have been it trying to point to you towards a no-self experience, which can actually be a very beautiful experience, where the 'you' experiencing reality fades away and there is just reality. I hope this comment was okay with you, and I apologize if it disturbed you. Still, if you've got nothing better to do with your time, no-self may be something to look into.
- ChatGTP 3y ago
  Actually, what I didn't mention is, the whole thing turned out really positive for me because I didn't self-harm, but I kind of came to a similar peaceful conclusion, but through studying philosophy. At some point I kind of just agreed with this new idea and have been running with it since. Buddhism often tells you to let your pain and suffering be your guide, and it works,at least in my experience. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

uoaei 3y ago

> We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions. It's pretty easy to slip into this. I don't have a good answer for solving this but criminalization is definitely a bad answer, so we will have to find a way to discourage such tendencies. It may be that it is mostly or entirely a cultural thing in which case public understanding of the drug is a prerequisite, so I'm glad more are starting to learn about it as a result of decriminalization and legalization. I hope she can find some way to be comfortable again.

hunter2_ 3y ago
Could this be the manifestation of an overdose? I'm not a medical professional, but this got me curious what the "LD99" would be for avoiding this (not literally lethal, but long term dibilitation), or if it's statistically unclear?
- tpm 3y ago
  It's very very unclear. One person can hit heroic doses (200-1000 micrograms of LSD or equivalent of mushrooms) and be completely fine afterwards, another can have a small, usually safe dose and have long-term issues. There are studies done to detect who will be susceptible to this, but there is no clear answer yet (aside from people with family history of bipolar or schizophrenia).
- hallway_monitor 3y ago
  More likely too frequent use. Psychedelics twist reality, doing them too often definitely leaves a mark. Eventually you have trouble telling what's real and what's not even when you're sober.
suzzer99 3y ago
Yeah I'm not arguing shrooms should be illegal. I don't think they're any worse than pot, and actually are the one drug I think everyone should do. But I think there are some serious risks to heavy, prolonged use that probably aren't well-studied or understood. Also for all I know her problems stem from the acid and not the shrooms.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

HKH2 3y ago

Well, it is a big simulation. She's discovered Plato's cave firsthand; no way could any brain handle the constant barrage from the senses. Once you start tripping you see that we are tripping all the time but we filter most of it out, thank goodness. Feeling like time is looping is pretty freaky regardless; once your mind starts short circuiting and you start heavily believing in symbols, patterns, alignment etc., it gets pretty scary. I think the best you can do is be a calm friend and imagine you're dealing with a two year old without being condescending.

nicoburns 3y ago

My experience is that I’ve seen this happen a lot to people who take psychedelics frequently (say, multiple times a month over a prolonged period). Whereas this seems to be rare with infrequent use at moderate dosages.

richardbatty 3y ago

There are organisations that work with people who have had challanging psychedelic experiences, but without taking the psychiatric approach. One such project is: https://zendoproject.org/ https://zendoproject.org/ You could also try contacting https://challengingpsychedelicexperiences.com/ https://challengingpsychedelicexperiences.com/ There are also therapists who work with people before and after psychedelic experiences, called psychedelic integration therapists. They usually have legit mainstream psychotherapy qualifications. There are also integration circles where people support each other. For example, https://acerintegration.com/ https://acerintegration.com/ This was set up by a researcher in psychedelics. Not sure if it would be appropriate for someone experiencing psychosis though. You could also try contacting the researcher directly for recommendations: https://www.drrosalindwatts.com/ https://www.drrosalindwatts.com/ There are also forums where you could ask for advice, e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/ https://old.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/ They might be able to point you to other resources like this in your area.

suzzer99 3y ago
Thank you. I have saved all of this for if this thing comes roaring back. Right now things seem more or less okay. Another contributing factor in all this is she lost her job, which gave her a lot of satisfaction. She has savings, so she's not hurting for money. But sitting around all day in her head and getting depressed isn't good.

PawgerZ 3y ago

> We know that the microdosing also turned into macrodosing on a lot of occasions Do you know how frequent the macrodosing became? I have never seen or heard (anecdotal) of microdosing leading to a psychotic break. But frequent use (more than once every three weeks) of large quantities will almost certainly harm you in the long run.

suzzer99 3y ago
The last time we hung out before all this went down, we had a few drinks then she broke out the acid, saying we would just microdose and it would be mostly like a really strong cup of coffee. Of course we ended up doing another microdose, which I'd estimate ended up at about 1/4 of a serious acid trip. I assume stuff like that happens a lot in her Phish group. Other times we've hung out at a party she's broken acid/e/shrooms out and I'm thinking, "We're not 25 anymore, we don't have to do this." At the time I kind of admired her for still being willing to go to those deeply introspective trippy places, whereas I'd rather just get a nice buzz and not plumb the depths of my soul. But now I'm thinking it's probably a good thing to hang that stuff up after a while, or at least not keep doing it regularly.
- PawgerZ 3y ago
  Thank you for sharing your experiences; I'm sure it's hard to see your friend go down that road. From my experience, the psychedelics will "tell you" to slow down, but it's up to the individual to make that choice.

sibeliuss 3y ago

Honest Q: How much weed does she smoke? Because if she smokes a considerable amount then that is certainly more likely than the psychedelics to be a factor.

suzzer99 3y ago
I don't think she's a huge weed smoker.