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I worked for a start-up that was struggling for money. The CEO had a bunch of relationships with small carriers in the US. One day he asked me to create a progr

by lcw 3y ago

I worked for a start-up that was struggling for money. The CEO had a bunch of relationships with small carriers in the US. One day he asked me to create a program that rooted a specific type of flagship Android phone and to update the carrier information to his choosing. At first, since we were a testing startup that had some government contracts, I thought this was for testing purposes since we had cell test equipment. I realized not too long after it was to basically enable small US carriers to sell flagship phones that were meant for different regions... Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup.

Namidairo 3y ago
> One day he asked me to create a program that rooted a specific type of flagship Android phone and to update the carrier information to his choosing. Are you referring to the baked in default APN's for different MCC/MNC combinations? Yeah those were/are quite annoying to have around if they were out of date. (I think there might be auto-update of these now, but that obviously requires a network connection) Or are you referring to actual radio config partitions on the flash? (Where one was able in the past on many models, flip bits in order to activate different cell bands) The former being janky and security risk, the latter being somewhat illegal.
- lcw 3y ago
  This is from about 10 years ago. So the carrier apis were a little different then, but the answer is both were necessary to update depending on the test or in this case carrier.
quickthrower2 3y ago
Genuine question as I don’t understand what this is. Is this essentially just unlocking the phone or something else?
HideousKojima 3y ago
>Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup. I don't understand what you had an issue with here? Legally it's completely in the clear (see first sale doctrine) and morally I'm not sure how it's any different than, say, the startups making IBM compatibles back in the 80's.
- brookst 3y ago
  Not the person you’re replying to, but I would have a problem working somewhere that had a business model of signing contracts they had no intent of honoring. Ethics aside, I’d have serious doubts about how they would handle any stock grants or other obligations to me.
josephcsible 3y ago
> Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup. Why? Do you consider contempt of business model to be immoral? Or are you saying the phones were stolen and not just gray-market?
- lcw 3y ago
  The manufacturers have contractual agreements with certain carriers in specific regions and get reduced rates because of the purchase power of those markets. It's not ethical in my opinion especially if you want to have a lasting relationship with said manufactures, which we did, to purchase large amounts of those phones and then sell them to US carriers by changing carrier configuration. At the time we were receiving pre released flagship phones to test with. I see people arguing that it's a supply and demand problem and there is nothing wrong with it, but the reality is more like there is demand there, but at the time carries say in South America could make a quick Million USD off just dumping the phones to the US which leaves the people of that region unable to purchase flagship phones at reduced rates. I'm not sure if the economics are the same now, but that was my understanding at the time and I felt like it wasn't and ethical path forward.
  - _3u10 3y ago
    Have you been to South America? Flagship phones don’t cost less here. Paraguay is about 20% more, Argentina 100 to 200%, and Brazil 30 to 40% more. Anything that is high end costs much more here due to a combination of tarrifs, reduced volume and the people who are wealthy not caring. Read up on Ciduad Del Este, it’s basically the electronics hub for the southern cone where electronics are smuggled into Brazil and Argentina. Beef and eggs from Argentina get smuggled into Brazil and PY. Anything that you were doing pales in comparison to what everyone here is doing.
    - lcw 3y ago
      Thanks for sharing I'm definitely going to read into it a bit, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about South American economics nor have I spent a lot of time there.I definitely haven't bought anything expensive there. As I said in a previous comments this was sometime ago, but I would say that if a bunch of carriers were selling their allotment of phones to US markets it could lead to the scenarios that you are depicting. If it's easier to offload to the US market expensive phones than reasonably there would have to be a big incentive to keep them in market which would inflate costs to be higher than US markets. I can't speak to the tariff issues though that could hurt my argument. It may be a lesser evil at the end of the day who is it for me to say. I just didn't feel right about it.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
> it was to basically enable small US carriers to sell flagship phones that were meant for different regions... Sounds like you did god's work.
TrinaryWorksToo 3y ago
Would this be legal from under first-sale doctrine?

by lcw 3y ago

Namidairo 3y ago

> One day he asked me to create a program that rooted a specific type of flagship Android phone and to update the carrier information to his choosing. Are you referring to the baked in default APN's for different MCC/MNC combinations? Yeah those were/are quite annoying to have around if they were out of date. (I think there might be auto-update of these now, but that obviously requires a network connection) Or are you referring to actual radio config partitions on the flash? (Where one was able in the past on many models, flip bits in order to activate different cell bands) The former being janky and security risk, the latter being somewhat illegal.

lcw 3y ago
This is from about 10 years ago. So the carrier apis were a little different then, but the answer is both were necessary to update depending on the test or in this case carrier.

quickthrower2 3y ago

Genuine question as I don’t understand what this is. Is this essentially just unlocking the phone or something else?

HideousKojima 3y ago

>Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup. I don't understand what you had an issue with here? Legally it's completely in the clear (see first sale doctrine) and morally I'm not sure how it's any different than, say, the startups making IBM compatibles back in the 80's.

brookst 3y ago
Not the person you’re replying to, but I would have a problem working somewhere that had a business model of signing contracts they had no intent of honoring. Ethics aside, I’d have serious doubts about how they would handle any stock grants or other obligations to me.

josephcsible 3y ago

> Let's just say that was the final nail in the coffin for me at that specific startup. Why? Do you consider contempt of business model to be immoral? Or are you saying the phones were stolen and not just gray-market?

lcw 3y ago
The manufacturers have contractual agreements with certain carriers in specific regions and get reduced rates because of the purchase power of those markets. It's not ethical in my opinion especially if you want to have a lasting relationship with said manufactures, which we did, to purchase large amounts of those phones and then sell them to US carriers by changing carrier configuration. At the time we were receiving pre released flagship phones to test with. I see people arguing that it's a supply and demand problem and there is nothing wrong with it, but the reality is more like there is demand there, but at the time carries say in South America could make a quick Million USD off just dumping the phones to the US which leaves the people of that region unable to purchase flagship phones at reduced rates. I'm not sure if the economics are the same now, but that was my understanding at the time and I felt like it wasn't and ethical path forward.
- _3u10 3y ago
  Have you been to South America? Flagship phones don’t cost less here. Paraguay is about 20% more, Argentina 100 to 200%, and Brazil 30 to 40% more. Anything that is high end costs much more here due to a combination of tarrifs, reduced volume and the people who are wealthy not caring. Read up on Ciduad Del Este, it’s basically the electronics hub for the southern cone where electronics are smuggled into Brazil and Argentina. Beef and eggs from Argentina get smuggled into Brazil and PY. Anything that you were doing pales in comparison to what everyone here is doing.
  - lcw 3y ago
    Thanks for sharing I'm definitely going to read into it a bit, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about South American economics nor have I spent a lot of time there.I definitely haven't bought anything expensive there. As I said in a previous comments this was sometime ago, but I would say that if a bunch of carriers were selling their allotment of phones to US markets it could lead to the scenarios that you are depicting. If it's easier to offload to the US market expensive phones than reasonably there would have to be a big incentive to keep them in market which would inflate costs to be higher than US markets. I can't speak to the tariff issues though that could hurt my argument. It may be a lesser evil at the end of the day who is it for me to say. I just didn't feel right about it.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> it was to basically enable small US carriers to sell flagship phones that were meant for different regions... Sounds like you did god's work.

TrinaryWorksToo 3y ago

Would this be legal from under first-sale doctrine?