4 ms·

I would hate to see this. That's essentially what the PC and Android markets are like, which are both full of shitty manufacturers making poorly supported throw

I would hate to see this. That's essentially what the PC and Android markets are like, which are both full of shitty manufacturers making poorly supported throwaway hardware. The IoT market is even worse. Coming from Wintel, the vertical integration of Apple is a dream by comparison. Never had a single hour of downtime, compared to all the reformats and driver reinstalls and registry hacks and display glitches and such that I've experienced with Windows machines, even top end Razers, Lenovos, Asus, and Alienware/Dell. Android was similarly terrible until the Nexus/Pixel lines, which again have first party control. Even the Play Edition and Motorola phones had issues not worth dealing with. There's plenty of generic chips out there, and no name manufacturers making commodity garbage. Apple doesn't need to play in that market.

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
> Coming from Wintel, the vertical integration of Apple is a dream by comparison You weren't around in the 1990s...
- solardev 3y ago
  How's that? I wasn't a Mac user back then (except in school), but IBM-compatible PCs were still a headache back then. I over-applied thermal paste and misconfigured `config.sys` or set the wrong COM port baud rates more times than I can count...
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    MacOS 9 was a dog's breakfast of an OS. OS X wasn't released until 2001, so until then all those Mac users were forced to run a cooperatively schedulding OS without even protected memory (!!). A typical PowerMactinosh's uptime was measured in the single-digit hours, not the weeks you'd get from NT, or months for a Unix box. ...there's no excuse for that given Apple's vertical-integration.
    - solardev 3y ago
      Ah, I can believe that. The Macs we did have at school did not impress much. We saw the sad Mac face quite a lot, and had to use the debugger often ("g finder" IIRC). I never had experience with NT until Windows XP. Did play around with MS-DOS, PC-DOS, Win 3.x and 9x, OS/2 Warp, and early Slackware though. None of those were particularly user-friendly or stable, lol, especially by today's standards. At the extreme end, I've fried a motherboard (shorted it somehow on first boot) and melted a laptop (tried to install Linux on it, apparently didn't have the fan drivers or something). Then early 3Dfx cards were also a pain to get working reliably, especially with SLI. It was just a rough time for everyone, lol. I think the only things from that era that actually worked well were my PalmPilot and Casio calculator watch :)
    - jwells89 3y ago
      That's all true, but nonetheless it was a ton of fun for those of us who were into desktop customization at the time. With how system extensions worked in Classic Mac OS (they could overwrite bits of the system in memory) there was practically nothing they couldn't do, and as a result it was one of the most effortlessly extensively customizable desktops to ever exist. Even 22 years later, in some ways Linux, the long reigning champion of customizability, has yet to beat it. Of course, that extension model was hilariously insecure and wouldn't have worked in the modern era, but it had its perks.
      - dansalvato 3y ago
        This was popular on Amiga as well, although maybe less clean and "officially supported" compared to Mac OS system extensions. There were Amiga utilities that remapped OS system calls to custom functions with performance optimizations, enhanced functionality, or different behavior altogether. The 68000 series CPUs didn't have an MMU built-in until the 68030, which I guess was far too late to see much use in consumer OSes. Pretty shocking that the jump to PPC wasn't enough for Apple to take care of that stuff, but I guess that was going to be Copland before it was canned. At least Amiga had preemptive multitasking from the beginning.
- irrational 3y ago
  I managed a college Mac computer lab (it was in the school of education, I guess Apple had a lock on schools with those brightly colored iMacs, which is what we had) from 1998-2000 when I was in graduate school. I don’t recall many problems, but maybe I’ve forgotten over the years.
  - solardev 3y ago
    This was middle/high school for me. We were kids and we wanted to break things :) We'd use the debugger to bypass parental controls, edit files to change our MathBlaster scores, poke around apps with ResEdit, etc. Yeah, we sometimes left the computers in various states of brokenness... but damned if it wasn't educational :) Our teachers eventually caught on, and rather than punishing us, they made us all lab assistants and gave us extra time after school to do LAN parties.
015a 3y ago
Its a fair opinion to have, but I feel that anyone who still thinks this way simply hasn't used Windows on a MacBook-priced device in recent history. Are MacBooks better? In many ways, sure, absolutely. Even at Macbook-priced territory, there are wrong machines to buy; shopping for a Mac is far easier. Windows still comes with a lot of ad-driven apps that I won't use (compared to the Mac, which also comes with a ton of apps I won't use, but at least they're well-intentioned). Battery is in another universe. Performance? The benchmarks say the Mac is in another class. There are plenty of use-cases that can leverage it. I can't; Windows is absolutely higher performance for my use-cases. Maybe its the animations. Maybe its Rosetta, as great as it is? Its definitely Counter-Strike 2 removing Mac support; its definitely Nvidia hardware acceleration in CAD applications. People use their computers in different ways; not everyone is viewing 8 streams of 4K RAW footage in their video editor.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- makeramen 3y ago
  I have yet to find a portable windows machine that doesn’t throttle performance on battery. Weird that no reviewers ever mention it but Macs have nearly no performance difference and they plugged in vs on battery and that’s a huge reason I don’t trust using any Windows laptops on the move.
  - Wissenschafter 3y ago
    Does it really matter if it throttles stuff when your other option is using a mac?
    - seec 3y ago
      That is a Mac user thing anyway. For some reason Mac users seems to have a boner for a computer that can work everywhere, especially in place where it makes everything more complicated and painful no matter the battery life. Well at least that is what they tell you; in large part thanks to the marketing. In practice I have rarely seen this sort of "advantage" really taken care of. For the most part people use their laptops for watching videos and doing simple office like task when they are on-the-go without a desk and power source. It's quite funny because it was already one of the major arguments of Mac laptops back in the 2000s when I bought my first one. I have done tech support for full Mac companies and countless of people with various jobs position and it simply doesn't reflect how the vast majority of people use their laptop. It's a lot like the capability of SUV/luxury 4x4 to go in accidented terrain. That's nice marketing feature but barely 1% of the buyers actually use it.
ragazzina 3y ago
>I would hate to see this. Why? You could still buy the real thing. This would not detract anything from your user experience.
- solardev 3y ago
  What I don't want to see is an ecosystem of shitty accessories and software, like the fragmentation of the Android ecosystem or the race-to-the-bottom of the Wintel world. It means developers have to develop against a bunch of incompatible devices with vastly different specs and chipsets, rush things to market without thorough testing, and stop supporting them soon after release. I've had that experience with all the Wintel laptops I've had, along with all the pre-Nexus/Pixel Androids, and basically every Wifi router and Bluetooth dongle I've ever owned. The world is overflowing with cheap, crappy electronics and fake reviews. It's nice to have a curated selection sometimes.

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago

> Coming from Wintel, the vertical integration of Apple is a dream by comparison You weren't around in the 1990s...

solardev 3y ago
How's that? I wasn't a Mac user back then (except in school), but IBM-compatible PCs were still a headache back then. I over-applied thermal paste and misconfigured `config.sys` or set the wrong COM port baud rates more times than I can count...
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  MacOS 9 was a dog's breakfast of an OS. OS X wasn't released until 2001, so until then all those Mac users were forced to run a cooperatively schedulding OS without even protected memory (!!). A typical PowerMactinosh's uptime was measured in the single-digit hours, not the weeks you'd get from NT, or months for a Unix box. ...there's no excuse for that given Apple's vertical-integration.
  - solardev 3y ago
    Ah, I can believe that. The Macs we did have at school did not impress much. We saw the sad Mac face quite a lot, and had to use the debugger often ("g finder" IIRC). I never had experience with NT until Windows XP. Did play around with MS-DOS, PC-DOS, Win 3.x and 9x, OS/2 Warp, and early Slackware though. None of those were particularly user-friendly or stable, lol, especially by today's standards. At the extreme end, I've fried a motherboard (shorted it somehow on first boot) and melted a laptop (tried to install Linux on it, apparently didn't have the fan drivers or something). Then early 3Dfx cards were also a pain to get working reliably, especially with SLI. It was just a rough time for everyone, lol. I think the only things from that era that actually worked well were my PalmPilot and Casio calculator watch :)
  - jwells89 3y ago
    That's all true, but nonetheless it was a ton of fun for those of us who were into desktop customization at the time. With how system extensions worked in Classic Mac OS (they could overwrite bits of the system in memory) there was practically nothing they couldn't do, and as a result it was one of the most effortlessly extensively customizable desktops to ever exist. Even 22 years later, in some ways Linux, the long reigning champion of customizability, has yet to beat it. Of course, that extension model was hilariously insecure and wouldn't have worked in the modern era, but it had its perks.
    - dansalvato 3y ago
      This was popular on Amiga as well, although maybe less clean and "officially supported" compared to Mac OS system extensions. There were Amiga utilities that remapped OS system calls to custom functions with performance optimizations, enhanced functionality, or different behavior altogether. The 68000 series CPUs didn't have an MMU built-in until the 68030, which I guess was far too late to see much use in consumer OSes. Pretty shocking that the jump to PPC wasn't enough for Apple to take care of that stuff, but I guess that was going to be Copland before it was canned. At least Amiga had preemptive multitasking from the beginning.
irrational 3y ago
I managed a college Mac computer lab (it was in the school of education, I guess Apple had a lock on schools with those brightly colored iMacs, which is what we had) from 1998-2000 when I was in graduate school. I don’t recall many problems, but maybe I’ve forgotten over the years.
- solardev 3y ago
  This was middle/high school for me. We were kids and we wanted to break things :) We'd use the debugger to bypass parental controls, edit files to change our MathBlaster scores, poke around apps with ResEdit, etc. Yeah, we sometimes left the computers in various states of brokenness... but damned if it wasn't educational :) Our teachers eventually caught on, and rather than punishing us, they made us all lab assistants and gave us extra time after school to do LAN parties.

015a 3y ago

Its a fair opinion to have, but I feel that anyone who still thinks this way simply hasn't used Windows on a MacBook-priced device in recent history. Are MacBooks better? In many ways, sure, absolutely. Even at Macbook-priced territory, there are wrong machines to buy; shopping for a Mac is far easier. Windows still comes with a lot of ad-driven apps that I won't use (compared to the Mac, which also comes with a ton of apps I won't use, but at least they're well-intentioned). Battery is in another universe. Performance? The benchmarks say the Mac is in another class. There are plenty of use-cases that can leverage it. I can't; Windows is absolutely higher performance for my use-cases. Maybe its the animations. Maybe its Rosetta, as great as it is? Its definitely Counter-Strike 2 removing Mac support; its definitely Nvidia hardware acceleration in CAD applications. People use their computers in different ways; not everyone is viewing 8 streams of 4K RAW footage in their video editor.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
makeramen 3y ago
I have yet to find a portable windows machine that doesn’t throttle performance on battery. Weird that no reviewers ever mention it but Macs have nearly no performance difference and they plugged in vs on battery and that’s a huge reason I don’t trust using any Windows laptops on the move.
- Wissenschafter 3y ago
  Does it really matter if it throttles stuff when your other option is using a mac?
  - seec 3y ago
    That is a Mac user thing anyway. For some reason Mac users seems to have a boner for a computer that can work everywhere, especially in place where it makes everything more complicated and painful no matter the battery life. Well at least that is what they tell you; in large part thanks to the marketing. In practice I have rarely seen this sort of "advantage" really taken care of. For the most part people use their laptops for watching videos and doing simple office like task when they are on-the-go without a desk and power source. It's quite funny because it was already one of the major arguments of Mac laptops back in the 2000s when I bought my first one. I have done tech support for full Mac companies and countless of people with various jobs position and it simply doesn't reflect how the vast majority of people use their laptop. It's a lot like the capability of SUV/luxury 4x4 to go in accidented terrain. That's nice marketing feature but barely 1% of the buyers actually use it.

ragazzina 3y ago

>I would hate to see this. Why? You could still buy the real thing. This would not detract anything from your user experience.

solardev 3y ago
What I don't want to see is an ecosystem of shitty accessories and software, like the fragmentation of the Android ecosystem or the race-to-the-bottom of the Wintel world. It means developers have to develop against a bunch of incompatible devices with vastly different specs and chipsets, rush things to market without thorough testing, and stop supporting them soon after release. I've had that experience with all the Wintel laptops I've had, along with all the pre-Nexus/Pixel Androids, and basically every Wifi router and Bluetooth dongle I've ever owned. The world is overflowing with cheap, crappy electronics and fake reviews. It's nice to have a curated selection sometimes.