5 ms·

I can only imagine Mazda's stake in this is that the OSS project is doing something that Mazda would like to monetize. Otherwise why limit a project that's maki

by madrox 3y ago

I can only imagine Mazda's stake in this is that the OSS project is doing something that Mazda would like to monetize. Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? The worst thing to happen to home automation was companies trying to lock customers into their ecosystem without greater interoperability.

Dalewyn 3y ago
>Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? It could be argued Mazda doesn't want to be on the hook for end-user customizations that may potentially jeopardize safety. Now yes, if a driver modifies his car's code or the results of that code and causes an accident that's on him and not Mazda. But you and I and everyone here all know the media will jump at the chance to plaster sensational headlines for click monies.
- bobsmooth 3y ago
  If the API can do something to make the car unsafe that's on Mazda.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    If you void the warranty by touching the API, they've put it back on you.
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    Thanks for beautifully proving my point.
sliken 3y ago
Mazda is likely jealous of BMW for charging monthly for seat heaters, OSS tools to control the car threaten that.
- salzig 3y ago
  BMW doesn't anymore: https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-charging-for-warming-cheeks/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-c... Looks like the pain was big enough.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    Too late, BMW was already in our blindspot when we bought a new car. Just like how no one reads the newspaper retraction, no one sees you walk back a bad decision once they've written you off. So don't make dumb decisions in the first place, even if it's "just to see if it sticks". As a result of the BS in TFA, I'd put Mazda in the same corner, except they were never a contender because they don't build cars that I might buy (well, okay, maybe a Miata).
jampekka 3y ago
Why almost all companies make their systems difficult to customize and introperate with? Lately I've been fighting with things like iOS, Chromecast, "smart" lightbulbs, vacuum robots and smartwatches and all of these go out of their way to lock these down and force their shitty and buggy and probably illegal spyware on me. I'm honestly asking why this is the default. What do the companies have to lose in people making their products suck less?
- Fauntleroy 3y ago
  It's unfortunately more profitable to make it this way, otherwise they wouldn't.
  - sophacles 3y ago
    If they all interoped well, then IoT companies would have to compete on quality. A whole market segment would just disappear overnight.
- account-5 3y ago
  > Why almost all companies make their systems difficult to customize and introperate with? On purpose, or from incompetence.
- Angostura 3y ago
  What spyware does iOS force on you?
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  There is no incentive to interoperate as it will only cost them profits. Something like that has to be government mandated.
  - jampekka 3y ago
    I get that they may not care to make nice documented APIs or follow standards, but they clearly use a lot of money to actively prevent you from even reverse engineering etc. I'd guess it's part just some knee-jerk business ideology and attempts at vendor lock-in and SaaS scams. Lock-in is clearly anticompetitive, and probably illegal, but law enforcement cares more about people smoking weed etc. The upcoming EU data act seems to try to tackle some of these. But I have very little hope it will amount to much. EU doesn't regulate business, business regulates EU.
V__ 3y ago
Mazda (and any big company for that matter) isn't a single entity, but thousands of people, teams and interests. Maybe this is a long term business decision, maybe legal doesn't differentiate between an open source or an commercial product, or maybe one manager is an idiot. The result is often something incomprehensible from the outside.
- akira2501 3y ago
  It's amazing to me that companies can control their messaging so tightly when it comes to marketing and publicity, but suddenly can't get the horse in front of the cart when it comes to legal processes. It's understandable, but it fails to be an excuse for the behavior.
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    I typically view these things as setting a precedent in a KISS sorta way. That is, it's easier (and quicker and simpler) just to say no than do things case by case. It also mitigates any possible future fiction. I'm not saying it's right. But knowing how these Big Incs operate it makes sense.
BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
Except that this library just calls the same APIs as the official app, using the user's own credentials. Any subscription-gated features would just surface through the API as they would in the app, i.e. "this operation isn't supported on your plan" etc. so there is no paywall bypass going on here.
quickthrowman 3y ago
> The worst thing to happen to home automation was companies trying to lock customers into their ecosystem without greater interoperability. It’s not just home automation, commercial automation is full of single source vendor ‘solutions’. Building automation: Johnson Controls, Carrier, Siemens, Honeywell, Trane (and others) all provide proprietary controllers and software. There are some ‘open’ systems where multiple dealers sell a product line, Distech and Alerton are the big ones that I’ve seen. Fire alarm: Johnson Controls (Simplex), Siemens, Honeywell, Bosch. Honeywell has their own internal product line that they sell, as well as two other lines that they have dealers sell (Notifier and Silent Knight). Nurse call, duress, security, surveillance (and probably other low-voltage/control systems I’m not familiar with) have the same problems with proprietary systems.
- _kb 3y ago
  The same also extends into media systems and commercial AV. There’s a disturbingly large portion of the product space across domains that’s actively hostile to any form of integration outside of their own shambles of a product ecosystem.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    Ah yes, Crestron is the one I am most familiar with in that segment.
Nextgrid 3y ago
It's not about monetization - that can be done just fine with this third-party client as it calls the same APIs as the official mobile app (thus if the mobile app requires a paid account for a certain action, so will this). This is about "engagement". There are a lot of oxygen wasters out there whose careers and paychecks depend on "engagement" metrics aka how much time has been collectively wasted wading through the cesspool that their software is. The annoyance and wasted time is the point, and an alternative client (or other way of automating it) goes against that. People often talk about "bullshit jobs" around here, but what everyone overlooks (or refuses to acknowledge as it's uncomfortable) are all the bullshit jobs in the tech/software industry who derive their careers out of end-user annoyance and misery.
- 1-more 3y ago
  > but what everyone overlooks (or refuses to acknowledge as it's uncomfortable) are all the bullshit jobs in the tech/software industry who derive their careers out of end-user annoyance and misery. I think this is because Graeber had little familiarity with this industry so it doesn't appear in the source text.
pwillia7 3y ago
I can't even use the android auto touchscreen in my miata because you can't make it disabled enough at speed so they just disabled the entire thing. Even the android auto dongles that hack that kind of thing I haven't had success with. I would bet this is some overzealous safety executive somewhere.
- giobox 3y ago
  ND2 Miata owner here, exact same complaints. I believe there are several models in Mazda's range with the frankly staggeringly annoying behaviour of disabling the touch screen once the car is moving. In lieu of the touchscreen while cars wheels are rolling, Mazda expect you to use this odd rotary controller in the center console, on the assumption it will be safer. It's not safer at all though - you have to turn the rotary controller and watch CarPlay or android auto do the equivalent of a tab key in the browser until it highlights the correct field, then press it in to select. It genuinely takes my eyes off the road longer than just stabbing a touch screen with my finger, as you have to make sure you have got the rotary controller to highlight the right button etc - you can overshoot just like tab in a browser. What's even funnier to me is that Mazda have no qualms about putting a switch to disable stability and traction control instantly right next to the steering wheel on a light weight rear wheel drive sports car; burnouts and oversteer are apparently perfectly acceptable usecases for a Miata, but selecting a song from the touch screen while moving? No way guys...
  - izacus 3y ago
    Disabling the distracting touchscreens is one of the things that Mazda does right. Pecking at the screen while driving is stupidly dangerous. Pretty much everything you need can be done with at most a few steps of the commander interface which are easy to learn.
    - solardev 3y ago
      I just rented a Mazda with one of those terrible rotary dials. Something as simple as finding the nearest gas station, which takes like 2 touches on a touch screen, takes several pushes and inaccurate turns of the dial. It turns a 3-second affair into a 30 second nightmare requiring constant distractions and squinting to see which button or field is currently highlighted. It's the worst car UX I've ever experienced, even worse than a Tesla. I'll never buy a car with a system like this. It's suicide.

by madrox 3y ago

Dalewyn 3y ago

>Otherwise why limit a project that's making people fell better about their car purchase? It could be argued Mazda doesn't want to be on the hook for end-user customizations that may potentially jeopardize safety. Now yes, if a driver modifies his car's code or the results of that code and causes an accident that's on him and not Mazda. But you and I and everyone here all know the media will jump at the chance to plaster sensational headlines for click monies.

bobsmooth 3y ago
If the API can do something to make the car unsafe that's on Mazda.
- klyrs 3y ago
  If you void the warranty by touching the API, they've put it back on you.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Thanks for beautifully proving my point.

sliken 3y ago

Mazda is likely jealous of BMW for charging monthly for seat heaters, OSS tools to control the car threaten that.

salzig 3y ago
BMW doesn't anymore: https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-charging-for-warming-cheeks/ https://techcrunch.com/2023/09/07/bmw-feels-the-heat-stops-c... Looks like the pain was big enough.
- mikestew 3y ago
  Too late, BMW was already in our blindspot when we bought a new car. Just like how no one reads the newspaper retraction, no one sees you walk back a bad decision once they've written you off. So don't make dumb decisions in the first place, even if it's "just to see if it sticks". As a result of the BS in TFA, I'd put Mazda in the same corner, except they were never a contender because they don't build cars that I might buy (well, okay, maybe a Miata).

jampekka 3y ago

Why almost all companies make their systems difficult to customize and introperate with? Lately I've been fighting with things like iOS, Chromecast, "smart" lightbulbs, vacuum robots and smartwatches and all of these go out of their way to lock these down and force their shitty and buggy and probably illegal spyware on me. I'm honestly asking why this is the default. What do the companies have to lose in people making their products suck less?

Fauntleroy 3y ago
It's unfortunately more profitable to make it this way, otherwise they wouldn't.
- sophacles 3y ago
  If they all interoped well, then IoT companies would have to compete on quality. A whole market segment would just disappear overnight.
account-5 3y ago
> Why almost all companies make their systems difficult to customize and introperate with? On purpose, or from incompetence.
Angostura 3y ago
What spyware does iOS force on you?
lost_tourist 3y ago
There is no incentive to interoperate as it will only cost them profits. Something like that has to be government mandated.
- jampekka 3y ago
  I get that they may not care to make nice documented APIs or follow standards, but they clearly use a lot of money to actively prevent you from even reverse engineering etc. I'd guess it's part just some knee-jerk business ideology and attempts at vendor lock-in and SaaS scams. Lock-in is clearly anticompetitive, and probably illegal, but law enforcement cares more about people smoking weed etc. The upcoming EU data act seems to try to tackle some of these. But I have very little hope it will amount to much. EU doesn't regulate business, business regulates EU.

V__ 3y ago

Mazda (and any big company for that matter) isn't a single entity, but thousands of people, teams and interests. Maybe this is a long term business decision, maybe legal doesn't differentiate between an open source or an commercial product, or maybe one manager is an idiot. The result is often something incomprehensible from the outside.

akira2501 3y ago
It's amazing to me that companies can control their messaging so tightly when it comes to marketing and publicity, but suddenly can't get the horse in front of the cart when it comes to legal processes. It's understandable, but it fails to be an excuse for the behavior.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  I typically view these things as setting a precedent in a KISS sorta way. That is, it's easier (and quicker and simpler) just to say no than do things case by case. It also mitigates any possible future fiction. I'm not saying it's right. But knowing how these Big Incs operate it makes sense.

BHSPitMonkey 3y ago

Except that this library just calls the same APIs as the official app, using the user's own credentials. Any subscription-gated features would just surface through the API as they would in the app, i.e. "this operation isn't supported on your plan" etc. so there is no paywall bypass going on here.

quickthrowman 3y ago

> The worst thing to happen to home automation was companies trying to lock customers into their ecosystem without greater interoperability. It’s not just home automation, commercial automation is full of single source vendor ‘solutions’. Building automation: Johnson Controls, Carrier, Siemens, Honeywell, Trane (and others) all provide proprietary controllers and software. There are some ‘open’ systems where multiple dealers sell a product line, Distech and Alerton are the big ones that I’ve seen. Fire alarm: Johnson Controls (Simplex), Siemens, Honeywell, Bosch. Honeywell has their own internal product line that they sell, as well as two other lines that they have dealers sell (Notifier and Silent Knight). Nurse call, duress, security, surveillance (and probably other low-voltage/control systems I’m not familiar with) have the same problems with proprietary systems.

_kb 3y ago
The same also extends into media systems and commercial AV. There’s a disturbingly large portion of the product space across domains that’s actively hostile to any form of integration outside of their own shambles of a product ecosystem.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  Ah yes, Crestron is the one I am most familiar with in that segment.

Nextgrid 3y ago

It's not about monetization - that can be done just fine with this third-party client as it calls the same APIs as the official mobile app (thus if the mobile app requires a paid account for a certain action, so will this). This is about "engagement". There are a lot of oxygen wasters out there whose careers and paychecks depend on "engagement" metrics aka how much time has been collectively wasted wading through the cesspool that their software is. The annoyance and wasted time is the point, and an alternative client (or other way of automating it) goes against that. People often talk about "bullshit jobs" around here, but what everyone overlooks (or refuses to acknowledge as it's uncomfortable) are all the bullshit jobs in the tech/software industry who derive their careers out of end-user annoyance and misery.

1-more 3y ago
> but what everyone overlooks (or refuses to acknowledge as it's uncomfortable) are all the bullshit jobs in the tech/software industry who derive their careers out of end-user annoyance and misery. I think this is because Graeber had little familiarity with this industry so it doesn't appear in the source text.

pwillia7 3y ago

I can't even use the android auto touchscreen in my miata because you can't make it disabled enough at speed so they just disabled the entire thing. Even the android auto dongles that hack that kind of thing I haven't had success with. I would bet this is some overzealous safety executive somewhere.

giobox 3y ago
ND2 Miata owner here, exact same complaints. I believe there are several models in Mazda's range with the frankly staggeringly annoying behaviour of disabling the touch screen once the car is moving. In lieu of the touchscreen while cars wheels are rolling, Mazda expect you to use this odd rotary controller in the center console, on the assumption it will be safer. It's not safer at all though - you have to turn the rotary controller and watch CarPlay or android auto do the equivalent of a tab key in the browser until it highlights the correct field, then press it in to select. It genuinely takes my eyes off the road longer than just stabbing a touch screen with my finger, as you have to make sure you have got the rotary controller to highlight the right button etc - you can overshoot just like tab in a browser. What's even funnier to me is that Mazda have no qualms about putting a switch to disable stability and traction control instantly right next to the steering wheel on a light weight rear wheel drive sports car; burnouts and oversteer are apparently perfectly acceptable usecases for a Miata, but selecting a song from the touch screen while moving? No way guys...
- izacus 3y ago
  Disabling the distracting touchscreens is one of the things that Mazda does right. Pecking at the screen while driving is stupidly dangerous. Pretty much everything you need can be done with at most a few steps of the commander interface which are easy to learn.
  - solardev 3y ago
    I just rented a Mazda with one of those terrible rotary dials. Something as simple as finding the nearest gas station, which takes like 2 touches on a touch screen, takes several pushes and inaccurate turns of the dial. It turns a 3-second affair into a 30 second nightmare requiring constant distractions and squinting to see which button or field is currently highlighted. It's the worst car UX I've ever experienced, even worse than a Tesla. I'll never buy a car with a system like this. It's suicide.