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The idea that your muscles have enough strength on the upstroke to contribute meaningfully to cycling is actually a bit of a misunderstanding. Your leg muscles

The idea that your muscles have enough strength on the upstroke to contribute meaningfully to cycling is actually a bit of a misunderstanding. Your leg muscles for lifting are much much much weaker than your leg muscles for pushing - they're designed to only lift up the weight of your leg and not much more. The main advantage of the clips is to keep your leg in contact with the pedal throughout the cycle and make sure the ball of your foot is optimally placed on the pedal. With a traditional pedal you have to keep some downward force on the pedal to create friction to avoid slipping off, so even when that leg is rising up, you can't completely unload the pedal. With clips you can completely unload the pedal.

onetimeuse92304 3y ago
Any muscle is trainable. To some extent. If you cycle enough, you will develop muscles necessary to pull the pedal up. Additionally, the goal isn't to double your power output. It is to be better than the other cyclist. Even by just a tiny bit. I personally think that clipping the feet helps more with left right stability. Also, if you are pulling with one leg, you can potentially push more with the other. Normally you can only push as much as you weight, but with the other leg clipped you can push your weight plus the force you use to pull the other pedal.
- justsocrateasin 3y ago
  This is true for certain metabolic zones but not others. If you're sprinting then yes, you get a higher power output while pulling up on the pedal. However if you're going for any kind of endurance (longer than a minute) the limiting factor is not muscular but cardiovascular/aerobic, and using less efficient muscles (the ones used for pulling up) will actually hinder your performance since you'll need to be supplying those with oxygen, thus decreasing total cycling economy.
  - onetimeuse92304 3y ago
    I am not versed with cycling economy. But yeah, it makes sense. On a bike, if you want to put up more power you have options to push harder or spin faster. If you had to push harder than your weight, you could always change your gears to rather spin faster.
  - ip26 3y ago
    Your goal in endurance conditions is to maximize the aerobic pathway, which means maximizing the number of active mitochondria. Recruiting more total mitochondria from more total muscle fiber will give you greater aerobic power output.
    - ang_cire 3y ago
      Ah yes, the Powerhouse of the Cell.
    - discreteevent 3y ago
      Like the parent said, the goal is efficiency not maximum power. And as another comment said, in practice the pros do not pull up. If there were even a minute gain in doing so, they would train themselves to do it (in fact some of them used to in the past before they figured out that it was a waste of time)
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  I would assume that just your hands being on the handlebars would let you push more than you weigh.
stouset 3y ago
> The idea that your muscles have enough strength on the upstroke to contribute meaningfully to cycling is actually a bit of a misunderstanding. Absolutely not, and there are plenty of easy counterexamples. If you've ever raced track, team pursuits start from a dead standstill. You have to expend a ton of force to turn a huge gear, and the contribution of the lifting leg is crucial to getting up to speed. Of course it's not going to contribute as much as your lead leg, but all four of your limbs are at maximum exertion getting the bike up to speed. Even not racing at a track, you can test this on any road bike. Shift into high gear, come to a standstill, and time yourself getting up to speed. Another trivial counterexample that anyone (with clipless pedals) can test is a hill climb. Being able to lift on the upstroke is an enormous additional benefit and the difference can be easily measured and proven. Perform a lengthy climb with and without involving your trailing leg, at a given level of intensity. Repeat this multiple times, and it will be patently obvious that your trailing leg is performing significant useful work. The steeper the climb, the more important this is. Sprint finishes are another place where this is critically important, but it's harder to set up a simple test. What all of these have in common are situations where outputting a higher force is more important than long-term endurance. Lifting on the upstroke is difficult to do at high pedal speeds, but at medium or low pedal speeds, it's a clear differentiator.
- rhn_mk1 3y ago
  Those are not necessarily examples of lifting. Those could as well be explained by the contribution of not pressing on the opposite pedal (to keep the foot from sliding). And not pressing doesn't shine any light on the force of lifting.
  - louthy 3y ago
    > to keep the foot from sliding The foot doesn’t slide with clipless peddles. The foot is locked in position. And you can absolutely use lifting and pushing combined - I have done this many times on long sportives (~100 miles); it can give respite to the ‘pushing’ muscles
  - tourist2d 3y ago
    > to keep the foot from sliding So you obviously have never used clip in bike pedals before. Why are you trying to argue this point if you know nothing about what you're talking about?
hinkley 3y ago
I think you’re imagining the hip muscles pull the entire leg up, but you’re pinning a double hinge between your body weight above and the pedal below. There are a lot of different muscles in the leg that you can activate to stay upright, but outside of yoga or tai chi most of us lock a bunch of them up and don’t think about them. Which is both a shame and a route to injury. Similarly there as a few different muscles that can bring your knee up if it’s pinned between your hip and a pedal. The hamstring being one of them. Though personally (as an enthusiast rather than a pro) I always felt like I had more stamina from just driving through the bottom of the stroke. I only pulled up on hills and when someone tried to drop us.
hermitcrab 3y ago
>Your leg muscles for lifting are much much much weaker than your leg muscles for pushing And yet Thai boxers appear to be able to generate at least as much force using upward knee strikes as push kicks.

onetimeuse92304 3y ago

Any muscle is trainable. To some extent. If you cycle enough, you will develop muscles necessary to pull the pedal up. Additionally, the goal isn't to double your power output. It is to be better than the other cyclist. Even by just a tiny bit. I personally think that clipping the feet helps more with left right stability. Also, if you are pulling with one leg, you can potentially push more with the other. Normally you can only push as much as you weight, but with the other leg clipped you can push your weight plus the force you use to pull the other pedal.

justsocrateasin 3y ago
This is true for certain metabolic zones but not others. If you're sprinting then yes, you get a higher power output while pulling up on the pedal. However if you're going for any kind of endurance (longer than a minute) the limiting factor is not muscular but cardiovascular/aerobic, and using less efficient muscles (the ones used for pulling up) will actually hinder your performance since you'll need to be supplying those with oxygen, thus decreasing total cycling economy.
- onetimeuse92304 3y ago
  I am not versed with cycling economy. But yeah, it makes sense. On a bike, if you want to put up more power you have options to push harder or spin faster. If you had to push harder than your weight, you could always change your gears to rather spin faster.
- ip26 3y ago
  Your goal in endurance conditions is to maximize the aerobic pathway, which means maximizing the number of active mitochondria. Recruiting more total mitochondria from more total muscle fiber will give you greater aerobic power output.
  - ang_cire 3y ago
    Ah yes, the Powerhouse of the Cell.
  - discreteevent 3y ago
    Like the parent said, the goal is efficiency not maximum power. And as another comment said, in practice the pros do not pull up. If there were even a minute gain in doing so, they would train themselves to do it (in fact some of them used to in the past before they figured out that it was a waste of time)
BobaFloutist 3y ago
I would assume that just your hands being on the handlebars would let you push more than you weigh.

stouset 3y ago

> The idea that your muscles have enough strength on the upstroke to contribute meaningfully to cycling is actually a bit of a misunderstanding. Absolutely not, and there are plenty of easy counterexamples. If you've ever raced track, team pursuits start from a dead standstill. You have to expend a ton of force to turn a huge gear, and the contribution of the lifting leg is crucial to getting up to speed. Of course it's not going to contribute as much as your lead leg, but all four of your limbs are at maximum exertion getting the bike up to speed. Even not racing at a track, you can test this on any road bike. Shift into high gear, come to a standstill, and time yourself getting up to speed. Another trivial counterexample that anyone (with clipless pedals) can test is a hill climb. Being able to lift on the upstroke is an enormous additional benefit and the difference can be easily measured and proven. Perform a lengthy climb with and without involving your trailing leg, at a given level of intensity. Repeat this multiple times, and it will be patently obvious that your trailing leg is performing significant useful work. The steeper the climb, the more important this is. Sprint finishes are another place where this is critically important, but it's harder to set up a simple test. What all of these have in common are situations where outputting a higher force is more important than long-term endurance. Lifting on the upstroke is difficult to do at high pedal speeds, but at medium or low pedal speeds, it's a clear differentiator.

rhn_mk1 3y ago
Those are not necessarily examples of lifting. Those could as well be explained by the contribution of not pressing on the opposite pedal (to keep the foot from sliding). And not pressing doesn't shine any light on the force of lifting.
- louthy 3y ago
  > to keep the foot from sliding The foot doesn’t slide with clipless peddles. The foot is locked in position. And you can absolutely use lifting and pushing combined - I have done this many times on long sportives (~100 miles); it can give respite to the ‘pushing’ muscles
- tourist2d 3y ago
  > to keep the foot from sliding So you obviously have never used clip in bike pedals before. Why are you trying to argue this point if you know nothing about what you're talking about?

hinkley 3y ago

I think you’re imagining the hip muscles pull the entire leg up, but you’re pinning a double hinge between your body weight above and the pedal below. There are a lot of different muscles in the leg that you can activate to stay upright, but outside of yoga or tai chi most of us lock a bunch of them up and don’t think about them. Which is both a shame and a route to injury. Similarly there as a few different muscles that can bring your knee up if it’s pinned between your hip and a pedal. The hamstring being one of them. Though personally (as an enthusiast rather than a pro) I always felt like I had more stamina from just driving through the bottom of the stroke. I only pulled up on hills and when someone tried to drop us.

hermitcrab 3y ago

>Your leg muscles for lifting are much much much weaker than your leg muscles for pushing And yet Thai boxers appear to be able to generate at least as much force using upward knee strikes as push kicks.