14 ms·
How to run 50% faster without external energy (2020)
- endisneigh 3y agoIf you change run to travel you can do the same thing with a kick scooter
- hinkley 3y agoIf you used this with a kick scooter you’d go even faster.
- sgarrity 3y agoIf even one of those many mathematical formulas had been a YouTube video of a person running in super-space-boots...
- tromp 3y agoUnder Resources at the bottom you can download a 9MB File (aay1950_movie_s1.mp4) of movie S1, but it only shows an animation of a disc running on blue, green, and red springs...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- swayvil 3y agoI'm looking for pictures of a guy with the exoskeletal running augmenter strapped on.
- ck2 3y agoInline skates on flat ground are technically "no external energy". And they can race a marathon in under an hour, so that's 26+ mph (42 kph)
- fwip 3y agoPresumably there are areas/applications where "running" is important - otherwise we can just use a bicycle.
- 303uru 3y agoHistorically, human survival. No other animal can cover ground the way we can. We've evolved to be highly efficient, one example; we cool ourselves better than any other animal we can maintain a fairly high power output almost indefinitely due to sweating.
- ck2 3y agoPronghorns would like a word. Not only could they race an entire marathon, they would beat those inline-skaters. 30mph for hours and 150 miles in some journeys. They evolved a different cooling system than sweating. https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/article/211/5/749/18118/Thermoregulation-in-pronghorn-antelope-Antilocapra https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/article/211/5/749/18118/...
- hinkley 3y agoWe have a cluster of veins at the base of the skull that dumps heat on the back of your neck after the blood reaches the brain, which is a similar convergent evolution. In the mid 90’s when I took an anthropology class, they had just worked out that the human family tree needed some adjustments based on the presence or absence of these ports on the edges of the occipital bone. These radiators were important to our big brain evolution. Without extra heat dissipation we’d cook our noodles. Humans with fevers over about 104-106 risk brain damage. It’s why willow bark tea and later aspirin were such pivotal discoveries. (Recently learned that aspen bark also contained salicylic acid, which is how aspirin got its named).
- hinkley 3y agoThere was a comedian who hit upon this in his act. Not only are we top tier endurance predators, we also have a very high wound closure capability. To the herbivores on earth we are all Mike Myers. Stop for a minute and he’s right there again. Wound him, and he comes right back. He riffed on why aliens are always the scary ones in movies. Maybe we are the scary ones.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- justinator 3y agoAh! Moon boots - had those as a kid.
- helsinkiandrew 3y agoHaven’t similar devices been around for ages https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_stilts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_stilts
- DropPanda 3y agoNo, the article specifically talks about a device where the legs perform work continuously, as in cycling. The device you linked to only lets the legs work during ground contact.
- tech_ken 3y agoNo, the difference is when/how you load the springs. This proposal seems to be that you load the spring with your leg in the air before it makes contact with the ground (achieved by attaching the top of the spring up the leg), then land the loaded spring and unload. Their argument is that this allows for higher overall energy output from the human body (akin to cycling). In a jumping stilt you're loading the spring when you put your foot on the ground and unloading immediately, so the energy output only really occurs during that period of foot contact, which presumably lowers overall output.
- culebron21 3y agoYou do the same in jumping stilts. You move arms and body in the air to increase jump amplitude, and land on a straight leg to compress the stilt and let it bounce back. If you try working with hips/knees while touching the ground, you'll amortize all the energy you generated, and exhaust quickly. Beginners suffer from this, and it takes some learning to run properly. Also, the energy converts from motion into spring load and back into motion, and you can keep adding it. Pro stilt jumpers can jump several times with more and more energy and increase height. When I took such classes of spring stilts, the coach showed us jumping above 2.5 m. Me and a classmate held a ribbon in our hands above our heads (we stood in stilts too), and he jumped several times towards us, each time higher, and finally flew above the ribbon. This is actually much more work than olympic jumping, where the COG of the jumper is actually a bit lower than the bar. This guy had to jump with COG much higher than the ribbon. But as I mention in the other post, if you fall down even routinely while running on stilts, it's very painful -- falling forward with your arms extended ahead, you still hit the ground with the ribs. Then they ache a month.
- bongwater_OS 3y agoWho could have guessed - attaching springs to your feet makes you run faster. This is the kind of genius scientific insight that's going to ensure the long term survival of the human race.
- zellyn 3y agoWould you have guessed that attaching springs to your feet would make you run faster? I certainly would not have guessed that.
- WalterBright 3y agoDidn't Wile E Coyote try that out?
- rocketbop 3y agoYes with mixed results.
- ben_w 3y agoNot only is that not entirely obvious at first glance, it sounds like the kind of paper-thin plot device used in a Loony Tunes cartoon. That it actually works is moderately surprising.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tech_ken 3y agoI mean yeah it's not exactly a novel observation, but there is some subtlety in /how/ you attach springs to your legs which seems to be the primary contribution of the paper. The two naive options - referred to as "in series and in parallel" - don't see the same results as their proposal (which they discuss at some length in the intro). Their proposal is more about making the "springs on your legs" idea as effective as possible by using a hip attachment to adjust the loading/unloading cycle. By loading the spring with your leg while it's in the air you can improve the overall energy throughput of your gait. Other "springs on your feet" concepts (mentioned throughout the comments section) use a loading/unloading cycle that's 180 degrees out of phase with this (leg on the ground is doing the loading). Snark is kind of the enemy of critical thought
- renewiltord 3y agoI considered using jumping stilts to run to work rather than skating or cycling. However, the skill level required to master them sufficiently to run required more training than I was willing to put in. I eventually ended up buying some shift.io moonwalkers, which do have quite a speed-up effect. The problem is that they're quite heavy and the walking motion required to use them effectively ended up requiring my anterior tibialis muscle to have more endurance than it does currently. Additionally, at higher speeds they're dependent on your foot stepping direction, which I have slightly outwards rather than in-line forwards, which causes a slightly skating motion when walking. The quest continues on.
- oezi 3y agoWhat are you trying to achieve? Keep weight/volume of the device low? Or is about training running but being bicycle-fast?
- renewiltord 3y agoI want to get somewhere faster with portable tools. Used to skate, but annoying to take skateboard everywhere. I live in SF, so bike gets stolen. Currently use Lyft e-bike rental but ideally have similar speed but backpack-able portability. Honestly, maybe I wear cooling vest and just jog to work. Walking too slow: 15+ min / mile.
- bee_rider 3y agoWhat about roller blades?
- paddy_m 3y agoI am an excellent ice skater and decent, not great rollerblader. Rollerblades are difficult to control and stop quickly (haven't mastered the sliding turn quick stop). They are much more sensitive to surface imperfections and slick surfaces than a bicycle. Finally, rollerblades are heavy and still require you to bring extra shoes, putting them on and taking them off takes about 5 minutes... All of this makes them impractical for commuting.
- lr4444lr 3y agoIsn't this why Oscar Pistorius was considered to have an unfair advantage by many?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- oezi 3y agoThe article says that the Paralympic running top speed is below the non-paralympic top speed.
- oh_sigh 3y agoWhich doesn't mean that blade-runner type people don't have an advantage.
- kibwen 3y agoNo, this is a different sort of spring-loaded mechanism that allows you to put energy into it when you retract a leg, then unleash that stored energy when your foot next hits the ground. "However, the current top speed of augmented running, 11 m/s, achieved using a spring prosthesis in series with the legs (13), is 10% below the top speed of natural running. A spring in series with the legs can mitigate collisional energy losses but requires the legs to provide a large force to support the body, unlike the wheel of a bicycle (10, 13, 14)."
- Etheryte 3y agoRoses are red, violets are glorious, don't try to surprise Oscar Pistorious. Sorry, I'll see myself out.
- tiffanyh 3y agoNike Vaporfly. I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned that 2 recording breaking marathon runs were by athletes wearing the Nike Vaporfly shoe. The shoe was ultimately banned due to the giving too much "bounce" (free energy) to the runners. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-athletics-shoe/nike-prototype-vaporfly-shoe-banned-but-current-version-going-to-olympics-idUSKBN1ZU25S https://www.reuters.com/article/us-athletics-shoe/nike-proto...
- rotskoff 3y agoIn fact, the shoe was not banned and it is one of the most widely used marathon racing shoes out there. Nearly all other running shoe companies followed suit and made more efficient racing flats with carbon plates and high energy return foams. Some restrictions did come out, including limits on the "stack height" racing shoes and more stringent restrictions on the track. The current generation of these, the alphafly 3, were just used to break a world record in the Chicago Marathon by Kelvin Kiptum. Those are unreleased as of yet.
- WestCoastJustin 3y agoLooks like initially was then wasn't re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Vaporfly_and_Tokyo_2020_Olympics_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Vaporfly_and_Tokyo_2020_O...
- mikestew 3y agoMmmm, not quite. The ones you and I can buy have a single plate, and stack height of 36mm. The ban was for shoes (like the VaporFly prototype) with >40mm stack height and/or multiple plates. Not that this article clears the matter a whole lot, but there is more information (sorry, couldn't find a succinct article on the topic): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nike-vaporfly-running-sneaker-not-banned-olympics/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nike-vaporfly-running-sneaker-n... I've used them (as a ~3:00 marathoner). They probably are good for a few minutes off your time. But what I noticed most was that the next day I said to my wife, "I don't think I ran hard enough." Oh, I ran hard enough, but the shoes do so much better at keeping the legs from getting trashed. Normally, I'd take the day off the day after a marathon. Instead, I said, "screw it, I'm going for a short run." And the VaporFly has little to do with this proposition, other than using a spring-like device.
- anotheryou 3y agoStep 1: become a kangaroo
- checkyoursudo 3y agoNaruto run. Don't even need to read the article. "Without external energy (but with external device attached)" is ... a bit disappointing. At what point does it cease to be running and start to be run-assisted catapulting? Or catapult-assisted running? It seems like more than just running.
- nvy 3y agoI googled "Naruto run" and it's just... Anime characters running with their arms outstretched behind them. That's not what TFA is discussing, you should probably read it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jc2jc 3y agoThe person you are replying to was (probably) making a joke. Naruto run is an old meme. I think they get the idea of what the article is describing going off of the full comment.
- altairTF 3y agoI found strangely amazing your inability to realize it was a joke the moment you googled "Naruto run"
- hombre_fatal 3y agoThe problem is that confidently wrong comments are posted to social media like HN and Reddit so frequently that you'd actually be wrong assuming sarcasm most of the time. So now you're just admonishing someone for trying to engage a comment instead of identifying the epic "anime run funny" humor. IMO the sanest policy is to just allow people to respond earnestly to posts even if it might be a joke.
- nvy 3y agoThe top hit for "Naruto run" was some random anime video. It was not at all clear that it's a meme and the joke went way over my head. Just as a heads up, not everybody watches anime.
- Tade0 3y agoI thought this would be about the Young Shuffle: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Young_(athlete) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Young_(athlete) It's actually surprisingly easy to do because you feel you're using less energy when doing it.
- p00dles 3y agoincredibly interesting, thank you
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- tech_ken 3y agoITT: people who read scientific articles by skimming the pictures. The proposal isn't "springs under your feet" it's "springs along your legs that you load while your leg is in the air". The point is that by loading the spring with a leg which is otherwise not doing anything you're able to increase the overall energy output of the body. Their Fig. 2 shows exactly the (theoretical) difference between the naive "jumping stilts" approach and what they're suggesting. > Cycling is faster than running partly because (i) the rolling motion of the wheels prevents collisional energy losses from stepping but also because (ii) wheels can support the weight of the body in place of the legs, while (iii) pedals enable the human to supply energy continuously in the air instead of intermittently when the leg is on the ground . Super interesting to see that they still can't outperform cycling. Presumably their proposal resolves most or all of point (iii), so the difference is from (i-ii). I would assume that, of these, (ii) would be the hardest to replace with any kind of leg attachment
- hinkley 3y agoOne of the reason pro cyclists clip their feet to their pedals is so they can load the “other” leg through the back of the stroke, and across the bottom as well by pulling back on the loaded leg. Come unclipped in a sprint and you’re fucked. Sounds like this is the same thing for running.
- criddell 3y agoHave you ever used an elliptical chainring?
- jph 3y agoYes, elliptical chainrings are great IMHO, especially if you train for elliptical continual exertion. Added 2km to my speed.
- jackmott42 3y agoNo it did not.
- quickthrower2 3y agoNow you just need to poles for the arms to get those triceps helping out, with springs so your biceps can preload them.
- asoneth 3y agoTheir model seems to predict a theoretical top speed of 18-20.9m/s (or 40.0-46.8mph, 64.8-75.2kph): https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aay1950#F2 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aay1950#F2 As much as I want to imagine people chasing down cheetahs, without empirical testing I have to admit I am skeptical of their claims.
- davidw 3y agoI'm envisioning the movie version, where there's a montage of the scientists crashing time and time again before they get it right.
- pixl97 3y agoEh, I'm not worried about their top speed claims... I'd be far more concerned that you could reach those speeds, and the hospital bills incurred by the inevitable accidents. You're going to have to have a massive amount of safety gear weighing you down (thereby losing speed) to keep you from busting your head open like a rotten cantaloupe moving that fast. Velocity squared is a bastard.
- MrRolleyes 3y ago[dead]
- ntonozzi 3y agoPeople bike and ski that fast every day with no protection other than a helmet.
- evilduck 3y agoAnd people occasionally die biking and skiing from their own accidents hitting unmovable objects — something virtually unheard of with runners.
- whywhywouldyou 3y agoSo what? These people will no longer be your run of the mill "runner". They will be augmented, much the way we're augmented by using bicycles and skis, etc. The original claim that if someone were to be able to move at these speeds that they would suddenly need to be heavily bogged down in safety gear is flat out ridiculous. Comparing it to other sports where we move at similar speeds should be more than enough evidence of that.
- dandanua 3y agoAm I correct that they propose to bend your leg (while it's in the air after a ground contact) with an additional force, which is used to conserve energy in an attached spring. Upon a next contact with ground this energy will be released, which gives a better boost than ordinary jumping stilts, since they are loaded only at the moment of contact?
- Someone 3y agoI couldn’t find a mention of oxygen usage. Given that running at speed is aerobic past 800m or so (for Olympic-level athletes. Mortals hit that point way earlier), would athletes actually be able to make the extra effort?
- wolverine876 3y agoMy understanding is that a species' maximimum speed depends simply on muscle mass. The reason elephants don't outrun cheetahs is that they accelerate more slowly and run out of energy before hitting the top speed their muscles could produce. Look up allometry for more. There are formulas for calculating top speed based on mass.
- Someone 3y ago> My understanding is that a species' maximum speed depends simply on muscle mass If so, that doesn’t mean that they would get faster if only they got more muscle. I would expect that species evolve towards not having more muscle than they can effectively use. I think looking at elite human runners supports that. At longer distances, they get less muscular. > The reason elephants don't outrun cheetahs is that they […] run out of energy before hitting the top speed their muscles could produce. > Look up allometry for more. There are formulas for calculating top speed based on mass. I think our best knowledge is that adding more muscle only works for a limited time. https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d51544f7767444e/share.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d51544f7767444e/share.html: “If muscles were all that mattered "elephants would reach maximum speeds of about 600 kph (370 mph)," she told AFP. Instead, tuskers peak at about 34 kph (21 mph). Big beasts, in other words, run out of so-called anaerobic energy, supplied by the muscles, before being able to reach their theoretically maximum speed.“
- wolverine876 3y ago>> The reason elephants don't outrun cheetahs is that they accelerate more slowly and run out of energy before hitting the top speed their muscles could produce. > Big beasts, in other words, run out of so-called anaerobic energy, supplied by the muscles, before being able to reach their theoretically maximum speed.“ Aren't we saying the same thing?
- bee_rider 3y agoThis seems fairly buildable, I wonder why nobody gave it a try.
- karmakurtisaani 3y agoThey probably needed their teeth too much.
- sib301 3y agoPeople fall off bikes and lose their teeth in the process all the time.
- karmakurtisaani 3y agoSometimes they even fall just walking on their feet, I've heard. The point is, these springs look terribly difficult to maneuver compared to bikes. No brakes, not continuously touching the ground, constant movement up and down etc.
- swader999 3y agoI want these for mogul skiing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- aghilmort 3y agointeresting — looks like would feel like running on pair of slanted pogo sticks, like juggling springs with feet
- layman51 3y agoThis post really reminds me of Keahi Seymour. I forget where I first learned of him, but it may have been an HN post because he was the subject of an article about pursuing a dream for 30 years and failing. But basically, the story is that he wants to produce and sell “bionic boots”. I forget the exact challenges he has faced in getting his goals met, but apparently he does have a working prototype of some sort that is used in a YouTube video.
- ummonk 3y agoOr you could ride a bicycle.
- john61 3y agoMy father built a prototype of such a device 20 years ago. He abandoned the project after trying the prototype, because it accelerated dramatically and he could not brake. He jumped sideways into the gutter and was really scared. My personal opinion is that the bicycle is already invented and its excellent energy efficiency is hard to beat.
- karmakurtisaani 3y agoThose springs look like a great way to get rid of any unnecessary teeth. Can't achieve that with a bicycle.
- hinkley 3y agoI know some people who tried.
- karmakurtisaani 3y agoLosing their teeth riding a bike? How did that go?
- hinkley 3y agoThey were head over heels about it. Seriously though, if you don’t have your helmet adjusted about as far forward as it can comfortably go, there are a number of angles at which you can take a header where part of your face touches the ground. If you’re lucky nothing hits but helmet. Less lucky, a bit of road rash. Less lucky still, maybe some loose teeth. The higher speed collisions I heard about mostly involved back injuries, which is less fun than artificial teeth. Younger people try to face plant.
- culebron21 3y agoI took jumping stilts classes in 2010-11. They work the same way -- you swing arms and body in the air, *land with straight knees* to compress the spring and preserve the energy, and then fly back up in the air. Maybe they are less efficient than the proposed device, but... Running in them, even properly like mentioned, was like running a sprint. You were wet and exhausted in half a minute. Fell from them twice -- once while running, a rubber shoe of the leg that was moving forward, brushed the asphalt, and I fell forward. Despite my arms were ahead, I hit the asphalt with elbows and ribs. The other time, year later, a rubber shoe broke apart when I landed on it, and the other leg, under much weight, bended slightly off the turning plane -- there was no fracture, but I barely could walk or cycle. It took a week till I could cycle, 2-3 weeks to walk normally and 3-4 months to stop feeling pain. Overall, it's too exhausting, you can't run in low energy mode. Walking in them is noteably harder and not much faster. You also can't stand straight in them -- must always keep stepping to keep balance, because there are no human feet to balance back&forth. Another issue is that it puts a lot of load on spinal disks, and some bone/connective tissue conditions forbid this -- you can walk but jumping will cause chronic pain for some time. Not to mention you can't walk in them in autumn, when asphalt is wet and covered with slippery leaves. Overall, it's more like downhill MTB -- for skilled and fit, and not scared of a fracture every season. ==== EDIT: Ok, maybe the whole problem with jumping stilts is height. I'd still love to see a mechanical stilts with springs that don't put you that high in the air, but have springs on the sides.