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How do you get anyone to take an action that jeopardizes their career? By making their survival not depend upon their career. That may sound glib, but I don't

How do you get anyone to take an action that jeopardizes their career? By making their survival not depend upon their career. That may sound glib, but I don't mean it to be. If there's a pilot that is hiding their mental health issues because they'll otherwise risk destitution, that's a problem that's solved by a social safety net. Such a safety net would also solve many other social ills, like people stuck with abusive employers, and so on.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
A lot of pilots like flying planes. A lot of pilots also enjoy ancillary aspects of their career like seeing the world or, notoriously, sex with flight attendants. Telling pilots that, if they open up to a therapist, they can just live on the dole afterwards, is cold comfort.
- afavour 3y ago
  Sure but if a pilot is contemplating suicide I’m not sure they’re enjoying a whole lot of anything, ancillary to their career or not.
  - genmud 3y ago
    From what I have read in biographies on suicidal people in bands and performers, who show similar traits, they can/do enjoy things... it's just they are constantly looking for "more" and can't really get the easy fulfillment they used to, since it's hard to outperform their career highs. I imagine it's similar with some pilots.
- pxmpxm 3y ago
  > sex with flight attendants I can't tell whether that is a stereotype or not.
ohdannyboy 3y ago
If you're competent enough to be a pilot you're competent enough to make money other ways so it's not destitution. The issue is losing the level of income they make (more than any safety net could pay) and a loss of purpose since most commercial pilots are pilots to the core. Not to mention status and social standing.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  Also: at least in the U.S., being an airline pilot is one of those career decisions that only really starts to pay off financially/lifestyle-wise later in your career. The pay and conditions of (say) mainline 777 captain vs. regional ERJ first-officer are very, very different and almost everything is seniority-based.
- xnyan 3y ago
  > If you're competent enough to be a pilot you're competent enough to make money other ways I believe an experienced commercial pilot makes around 200K? If I’m 50 have no professional skills except being a commercial airline pilot, what kind of work do I qualify for that has comparable pay? > The issue is losing the level of income they make (more than any safety net could pay) Why can’t this be solved by a tool like insurance? It only needs to cover something like like 80% of the career earnings of people who would be removed for mental health reasons up to the mandatory retirement age of 67, minus early retirement benefits if any. Unless they are a huge number of pilots that would be removed for mental reasons, it seems affordable to me.
  - ohdannyboy 3y ago
    I acknowledged they probably couldn't get the same pay in my post... A social safety net has the same problem. My point was they could retool and have above average skills to lean complex machinery, handle stress, make decisions, ect. I don't think risk of destitution is three major issue. I agree insurance is probably the best way, but even that doesn't help with the purpose and social status part, which I think are the largest factors. Plus if the insurance covers career advancement losses the incentives become really adverse, if it doesn't there's still massive economic losses. I think any solution would also need a way to get back in. No need to lose everything because you had a bad time once.
    - xnyan 3y ago
      >Plus if the insurance covers career advancement losses the incentives become really adverse. Fair concern, I think we can screen for people faking it for money. Also, in these situations the payout is usually somewhat less than you would earn working. I get that the end of a career you worked your life for is really hard, but unfortunately it's not an uncommon experience and being a pilot is not a right. A payout for a significant portion of your future earnings is far more than most get in that situation.
SkyMarshal 3y ago
How about just not making their career be harmed by taking actions that solve real problems and actually improve the business and industry?
- lordfrito 3y ago
  I like what you're saying, but I'm not sure that's entirely workable regarding edge cases. If a pilot fantasizes about crashing planes and killing people, and tells someone about this, I'm not sure I want there to be a way for them to keep their career. Sure lets treat them, get them better, but putting them back in a plane? Is it worth the risk? You put people like that back in planes, and well, eventually one got the keys that shouldn't have. I can imagine TV reporting after a suicide crash "well... we knew they used to fantasize about crashing planes full of people, but they said they were better now and we didn't want to damage their career so we put them back in the captains seat". Help them, retrain them for another job, but don't give them the keys to the plane. In real life I keep reading about an increase in "near collisions" on runways caused by low performing air traffic controllers that keep getting shuffled around instead of being fired (having their career harmed). If people with known mental issues can't get guns, why would we give them the keys to a large airplane full of people?
  - genmud 3y ago
    First off, people with known mental issues (depression, ADHD or suicidal thoughts) actually can legally purchase / possess guns, silencers, machineguns and grenade launchers (assuming they have the proper paperwork/taxes paid). They only become a prohibited possessor when they are adjudicated mentally defective (a legal process) or have been institutionalized at a mental hospital. Secondly, issues like this aren't a 0 or 1, they are on a scale. Someone can be depressed without being suicidal and someone can be suicidal without being homicidal. Someone can have ADHD without being a danger to passengers. The FAA treats all mental issues effectively as the same thing, which results in pilots being barred from flying. Someone feeling down for a month or two after their wife dying after 30 years of marriage gets the same treatment as someone who ideates killing a plane full of passengers.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

A lot of pilots like flying planes. A lot of pilots also enjoy ancillary aspects of their career like seeing the world or, notoriously, sex with flight attendants. Telling pilots that, if they open up to a therapist, they can just live on the dole afterwards, is cold comfort.

afavour 3y ago
Sure but if a pilot is contemplating suicide I’m not sure they’re enjoying a whole lot of anything, ancillary to their career or not.
- genmud 3y ago
  From what I have read in biographies on suicidal people in bands and performers, who show similar traits, they can/do enjoy things... it's just they are constantly looking for "more" and can't really get the easy fulfillment they used to, since it's hard to outperform their career highs. I imagine it's similar with some pilots.
pxmpxm 3y ago
> sex with flight attendants I can't tell whether that is a stereotype or not.

ohdannyboy 3y ago

If you're competent enough to be a pilot you're competent enough to make money other ways so it's not destitution. The issue is losing the level of income they make (more than any safety net could pay) and a loss of purpose since most commercial pilots are pilots to the core. Not to mention status and social standing.

NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
Also: at least in the U.S., being an airline pilot is one of those career decisions that only really starts to pay off financially/lifestyle-wise later in your career. The pay and conditions of (say) mainline 777 captain vs. regional ERJ first-officer are very, very different and almost everything is seniority-based.
xnyan 3y ago
> If you're competent enough to be a pilot you're competent enough to make money other ways I believe an experienced commercial pilot makes around 200K? If I’m 50 have no professional skills except being a commercial airline pilot, what kind of work do I qualify for that has comparable pay? > The issue is losing the level of income they make (more than any safety net could pay) Why can’t this be solved by a tool like insurance? It only needs to cover something like like 80% of the career earnings of people who would be removed for mental health reasons up to the mandatory retirement age of 67, minus early retirement benefits if any. Unless they are a huge number of pilots that would be removed for mental reasons, it seems affordable to me.
- ohdannyboy 3y ago
  I acknowledged they probably couldn't get the same pay in my post... A social safety net has the same problem. My point was they could retool and have above average skills to lean complex machinery, handle stress, make decisions, ect. I don't think risk of destitution is three major issue. I agree insurance is probably the best way, but even that doesn't help with the purpose and social status part, which I think are the largest factors. Plus if the insurance covers career advancement losses the incentives become really adverse, if it doesn't there's still massive economic losses. I think any solution would also need a way to get back in. No need to lose everything because you had a bad time once.
  - xnyan 3y ago
    >Plus if the insurance covers career advancement losses the incentives become really adverse. Fair concern, I think we can screen for people faking it for money. Also, in these situations the payout is usually somewhat less than you would earn working. I get that the end of a career you worked your life for is really hard, but unfortunately it's not an uncommon experience and being a pilot is not a right. A payout for a significant portion of your future earnings is far more than most get in that situation.

SkyMarshal 3y ago

How about just not making their career be harmed by taking actions that solve real problems and actually improve the business and industry?

lordfrito 3y ago
I like what you're saying, but I'm not sure that's entirely workable regarding edge cases. If a pilot fantasizes about crashing planes and killing people, and tells someone about this, I'm not sure I want there to be a way for them to keep their career. Sure lets treat them, get them better, but putting them back in a plane? Is it worth the risk? You put people like that back in planes, and well, eventually one got the keys that shouldn't have. I can imagine TV reporting after a suicide crash "well... we knew they used to fantasize about crashing planes full of people, but they said they were better now and we didn't want to damage their career so we put them back in the captains seat". Help them, retrain them for another job, but don't give them the keys to the plane. In real life I keep reading about an increase in "near collisions" on runways caused by low performing air traffic controllers that keep getting shuffled around instead of being fired (having their career harmed). If people with known mental issues can't get guns, why would we give them the keys to a large airplane full of people?
- genmud 3y ago
  First off, people with known mental issues (depression, ADHD or suicidal thoughts) actually can legally purchase / possess guns, silencers, machineguns and grenade launchers (assuming they have the proper paperwork/taxes paid). They only become a prohibited possessor when they are adjudicated mentally defective (a legal process) or have been institutionalized at a mental hospital. Secondly, issues like this aren't a 0 or 1, they are on a scale. Someone can be depressed without being suicidal and someone can be suicidal without being homicidal. Someone can have ADHD without being a danger to passengers. The FAA treats all mental issues effectively as the same thing, which results in pilots being barred from flying. Someone feeling down for a month or two after their wife dying after 30 years of marriage gets the same treatment as someone who ideates killing a plane full of passengers.