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I didn't really want to engage on HN as I think this whole post doesn't belong here (politically charged content is something this site generally avoids), but I

I didn't really want to engage on HN as I think this whole post doesn't belong here (politically charged content is something this site generally avoids), but I will highlight the issue here. If you jump in to advocate support of Palestinians / Gaza, but didn't express any support for Israelis / Israel when Hamas (the elected and still popular government of Gaza) murdered over 1000 civilians, you're not an unbiased supporter that just wants peace. You have ignored the catalyst of the current episode of this conflict, which was an incredibly, obviously evil act against Israeli and foreign civilians, by Hamas, and widely celebrated in Gaza. The worldwide attacks on Jews and synagogues, the chants of "Gas the Jews" and "From the River to the Sea" (which is a call for genocide of Israelis), the open calls from Palestinian terrorist groups calling for attacks on Jews worldwide, make it clear that antizionism is inextricably linked with antisemitism (as does the actual history of the conflict).

LindeBuzoGray 3y ago
> Hamas (the elected and still popular government of Gaza) murdered over 1000 civilians Israel killed over 1000 Palestinians from 2018 until before Operation al-Aqsa Flood. There's nothing really unusual about it from.that context. And Israel us currently massacring civilians in Gaza every day. > the catalyst of the current episode of this conflict Israelis murdered people on an aid flotilla a few years ago, and are evicting West Bank Palestinians from their homes with settlers, as the Israelis parade around the al-Aqsa mosque.
- grumple 3y ago
  > Israel killed over 1000 Palestinians from 2018 until before Operation al-Aqsa Flood. There's nothing really unusual about it from.that context. And Israel us currently massacring civilians in Gaza every day. Hamas makes no distinction between their soldiers and civilians deaths. And given their blatant lies about the supposed IDF attack on a hospital this week (actually caused by a Palestinian rocket which failed) and impossibly high and fast death count, and the whole being a terrorist organization, they can't be trusted. Israel attempts to avoid civilians casualties via roof knocks and phone messages. The only exceptions here tend to be people storming the border. You are comparing that against designed, intentional murder, rape, and torture of civilians by Hamas. > Israelis murdered people on an aid flotilla a few years ago, and are evicting West Bank Palestinians from their homes with settlers, as the Israelis parade around the al-Aqsa mosque. That flotilla was trying to break a blockade and had been warned against it. When the ships were boarded, there was violent resistance, which resulted in some of the fighters being killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid Evicting Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank is obviously vile behavior. It's hard to get a liberal government elected in Israel to stop it given the state of the conflict. About the mosque: It was the holiest site in Judaism for a thousand years before Islam existed.
unmole 3y ago
> The worldwide attacks on Jews and synagogues, the chants of "Gas the Jews" and "From the River to the Sea" (which is a call for genocide of Israelis), the open calls from Palestinian terrorist groups calling for attacks on Jews worldwide, make it clear that antizionism is inextricably linked with antisemitism (as does the actual history of the conflict). This makes zero sense. Terrorists call for terrorism, ergo anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism? You'll have to put up a better argument than that. The actual history of the conflict starts with a bunch of European Jews turning up in West Asia and claiming that it was their land on the basis of a story book. European anti-Semites were more than happy with this arrangement because it meant their Jewish citizens would leave. Even the Nazis worked with the Zionist Agency to enable some 60 thousand German Jews to emmigrate to Palestine.
- grumple 3y ago
  > This makes zero sense. Terrorists call for terrorism, ergo anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism? You'll have to put up a better argument than that. The same people calling for antizionism are also calling for attacks on Jews. But anti-zionism is just antisemitic on its face: it means "I don't want Jews here in the middle east" (despite it being their historical home where they've maintained a constant presence). Here in the west (in the US and much of Europe, anyway), we generally reject the idea of using ethnicity as a reason to reject people from moving here. Imagine if we refused Native Americans from repatriating, but we called it "antitribalism" or something instead of the obvious racism that it is. > The actual history of the conflict starts with a bunch of European Jews turning up in West Asia and claiming that it was their land on the basis of a story book. There actually is a long history of Jews in the middle east, well supported by historical and archaeological evidence, and genetic studies (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judais... , you can find endless books and studies on the subject). They were exiled by multiple wars with the Romans, Arabs, and others. There were also ~600,000 Arab Jews who were exiled from various Arab nations in the middle east in the mid 20th century as well, who overwhelming went to Israel. Early Zionism (late 19th century to 1948) was all Jews purchasing land in the area. They didn't just come and take it. Of course, there were plenty of socioeconomic issues here: Jews were buying land from wealthy landowners who lived or moved to other parts of the middle east, which often disrupted Arabs who lived or worked on that land prior to it being sold. Conflict with the Jews was thus twofold - partly based on the ancient religious strife, partly a socialist uprising (which was ultimately usurped by fascist populist groups like Fatah and Hamas). The Ottoman empire had controlled the land for hundreds of years, the population of the area had plummeted to a fraction of its historical population, and out of the Ottoman empire's fall, new national identities began to form, and with them, new nations - Palestine and Israel amongst them (also Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon...), and some of the Palestinian identity arose as a response to the rise of Israel. I'm going to refrain from going into further depth here, as I could write a novel. Recommended reading: "Palestinian Identity". But to say the conflict starts at the point where there were the least Jews there is, at best, inaccurate, though it is convenient for antizionist narratives. > European anti-Semites were more than happy with this arrangement because it meant their Jewish citizens would leave. Even the Nazis worked with the Zionist Agency to enable some 60 thousand German Jews to emmigrate to Palestine. No argument here.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
> If you jump in to advocate support of Palestinians / Gaza, but didn't express any support for Israelis / Israel when Hamas The vast majority of people are doing the opposite. Advocating support of Israel without expressing any support for innocent palestinians. The media seems especially bad about this, focusing exclusively on people who didn;t condemn Israel hard enough while ignoring the thousands of Palestinians that have been killed in settler terrorist attacks, which are implicitly supoorted by Bibi and the current regime. Israeli settlers continue to massacre palestinians in the west bank. Terrorism is never acceptable, but it unfortunately will continue as long as palestinians feel they're not respected by israel. That's just reality. I'm not advocating for naive peace talks, but you can't continue to be surprised when the prisoners rise up. And I struggle to think of any other word to describe gazans.

LindeBuzoGray 3y ago

> Hamas (the elected and still popular government of Gaza) murdered over 1000 civilians Israel killed over 1000 Palestinians from 2018 until before Operation al-Aqsa Flood. There's nothing really unusual about it from.that context. And Israel us currently massacring civilians in Gaza every day. > the catalyst of the current episode of this conflict Israelis murdered people on an aid flotilla a few years ago, and are evicting West Bank Palestinians from their homes with settlers, as the Israelis parade around the al-Aqsa mosque.

grumple 3y ago
> Israel killed over 1000 Palestinians from 2018 until before Operation al-Aqsa Flood. There's nothing really unusual about it from.that context. And Israel us currently massacring civilians in Gaza every day. Hamas makes no distinction between their soldiers and civilians deaths. And given their blatant lies about the supposed IDF attack on a hospital this week (actually caused by a Palestinian rocket which failed) and impossibly high and fast death count, and the whole being a terrorist organization, they can't be trusted. Israel attempts to avoid civilians casualties via roof knocks and phone messages. The only exceptions here tend to be people storming the border. You are comparing that against designed, intentional murder, rape, and torture of civilians by Hamas. > Israelis murdered people on an aid flotilla a few years ago, and are evicting West Bank Palestinians from their homes with settlers, as the Israelis parade around the al-Aqsa mosque. That flotilla was trying to break a blockade and had been warned against it. When the ships were boarded, there was violent resistance, which resulted in some of the fighters being killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid Evicting Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank is obviously vile behavior. It's hard to get a liberal government elected in Israel to stop it given the state of the conflict. About the mosque: It was the holiest site in Judaism for a thousand years before Islam existed.

unmole 3y ago

> The worldwide attacks on Jews and synagogues, the chants of "Gas the Jews" and "From the River to the Sea" (which is a call for genocide of Israelis), the open calls from Palestinian terrorist groups calling for attacks on Jews worldwide, make it clear that antizionism is inextricably linked with antisemitism (as does the actual history of the conflict). This makes zero sense. Terrorists call for terrorism, ergo anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism? You'll have to put up a better argument than that. The actual history of the conflict starts with a bunch of European Jews turning up in West Asia and claiming that it was their land on the basis of a story book. European anti-Semites were more than happy with this arrangement because it meant their Jewish citizens would leave. Even the Nazis worked with the Zionist Agency to enable some 60 thousand German Jews to emmigrate to Palestine.

grumple 3y ago
> This makes zero sense. Terrorists call for terrorism, ergo anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism? You'll have to put up a better argument than that. The same people calling for antizionism are also calling for attacks on Jews. But anti-zionism is just antisemitic on its face: it means "I don't want Jews here in the middle east" (despite it being their historical home where they've maintained a constant presence). Here in the west (in the US and much of Europe, anyway), we generally reject the idea of using ethnicity as a reason to reject people from moving here. Imagine if we refused Native Americans from repatriating, but we called it "antitribalism" or something instead of the obvious racism that it is. > The actual history of the conflict starts with a bunch of European Jews turning up in West Asia and claiming that it was their land on the basis of a story book. There actually is a long history of Jews in the middle east, well supported by historical and archaeological evidence, and genetic studies (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judais... , you can find endless books and studies on the subject). They were exiled by multiple wars with the Romans, Arabs, and others. There were also ~600,000 Arab Jews who were exiled from various Arab nations in the middle east in the mid 20th century as well, who overwhelming went to Israel. Early Zionism (late 19th century to 1948) was all Jews purchasing land in the area. They didn't just come and take it. Of course, there were plenty of socioeconomic issues here: Jews were buying land from wealthy landowners who lived or moved to other parts of the middle east, which often disrupted Arabs who lived or worked on that land prior to it being sold. Conflict with the Jews was thus twofold - partly based on the ancient religious strife, partly a socialist uprising (which was ultimately usurped by fascist populist groups like Fatah and Hamas). The Ottoman empire had controlled the land for hundreds of years, the population of the area had plummeted to a fraction of its historical population, and out of the Ottoman empire's fall, new national identities began to form, and with them, new nations - Palestine and Israel amongst them (also Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon...), and some of the Palestinian identity arose as a response to the rise of Israel. I'm going to refrain from going into further depth here, as I could write a novel. Recommended reading: "Palestinian Identity". But to say the conflict starts at the point where there were the least Jews there is, at best, inaccurate, though it is convenient for antizionist narratives. > European anti-Semites were more than happy with this arrangement because it meant their Jewish citizens would leave. Even the Nazis worked with the Zionist Agency to enable some 60 thousand German Jews to emmigrate to Palestine. No argument here.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

> If you jump in to advocate support of Palestinians / Gaza, but didn't express any support for Israelis / Israel when Hamas The vast majority of people are doing the opposite. Advocating support of Israel without expressing any support for innocent palestinians. The media seems especially bad about this, focusing exclusively on people who didn;t condemn Israel hard enough while ignoring the thousands of Palestinians that have been killed in settler terrorist attacks, which are implicitly supoorted by Bibi and the current regime. Israeli settlers continue to massacre palestinians in the west bank. Terrorism is never acceptable, but it unfortunately will continue as long as palestinians feel they're not respected by israel. That's just reality. I'm not advocating for naive peace talks, but you can't continue to be surprised when the prisoners rise up. And I struggle to think of any other word to describe gazans.