5 ms·

> Operations always felt like “the things around the Thing” - a supporting cast that is important to making something happen. In the short term, it can feel th

by mjb 3y ago

> Operations always felt like “the things around the Thing” - a supporting cast that is important to making something happen. In the short term, it can feel that way. But in the longer term, at least in the part of the industry I'm in, operations are the core thing. Everybody I know who has become good at building resilient and robust systems that survive contact with the real world has a lot of experience understanding and fixing broken systems. A lot of humility of seeing good plans go wrong, and good ideas turn into bad ideas. The best have all this experience and still deep optimism about what's possible, about what can be built next, and about being able to fix the problem this time. > How do ops people thrive and grow as those who take care of the systems around us, without letting the systems consume us? An excellent question. In my career, I've optimized for working with people I can trust, and people I know who care as much as I do. In the short term, that can be stressful, because people express caring in different ways that aren't always productive. In the long term, its all worth it. The times in my career (careers?) I've felt most burned out were when I worked with people who didn't care, who I couldn't trust to care, and so I ended up being the only person in the room who cared. That's exhausting. > In what ways are the systems we maintain mirrors of ourselves? Another excellent question.

belthesar 3y ago
> I've felt most burned out were when I worked with people who didn't care, who I couldn't trust to care, and so I ended up being the only person in the room who cared. Wow. I feel so seen with this particular sentence, having felt this at numerous jobs both professional and volunteer. Well said.
- hinkley 3y ago
  “Not my circus, not my clowns.” Makes me feel like I need a shower, but it’s still lighter than what I used to do. So I guess we are going to have an outage next week, almost on purpose. Great. See you then. I’ll bring popcorn.
danwee 3y ago
> I've felt most burned out were when I worked with people who didn't care, who I couldn't trust to care, and so I ended up being the only person in the room who cared. Been there, but I don't see it as a problem. On the contrary, by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. In the few situations in which I didn't get more than my peers (who didn't give a damn), I resigned. So, at least for me, being around people who don't care that much is an opportunity for me to by working normal hours (9-5) and caring, get a salary bump.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  > On the contrary, by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. Then management cared. > In the few situations in which I didn't get more than my peers (who didn't give a damn), I resigned. Yeah, that's a legitimate response to nobody caring if you can.
- JohnMakin 3y ago
  > On the contrary, by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. This is definitely not always the case. I can think of cases in my own career where this attitude was actually detrimental to my success at the company.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Mine was detrimental for sure.
- tambourine_man 3y ago
  You were very lucky. There are many cases where the people who do the most are not recognized or compensated. It's even seen as detrimental, sometimes. I’d say most cases, in fact. Being able to standout is a skill.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. Having also been in a similar situation, I'm going to guess that it wasn't actually the caring that made the difference, but the practical actions that you took (motivated by that caring) that made the difference. It's one thing to "care". It's another to do data recording and a subsequent Pareto analysis of the sources of outage/downtime/bugs/losses, then to apply efforts to solve the 20% of things that likely result in 80% of the losses, thus dramatically improving the operations of the company. Other people don't seem to care at all, while others "care too much" (meaning won't accept anything other than 100% fixes to 100% of issues, meaning they can skip over the hard work of data collection and analysis). Creating good outcomes is generally rewarded; mere caring is not.
vsareto 3y ago
I don't blame people for not caring. Generally I assume there's a decent reason for it. Caring has a cost, and some peoples' personalities mean they pay a heavier cost, and I don't think a large portion of our population around tech is maliciously trying to get salaries for no effort. Businesses will fire you at will if they have a reason regardless of how much you cared. Personally I still somewhat care, but it's hard when a company doesn't give raises or bonuses and blames the economy for it over the past 2 years. I've been in hearing distance of a few other reasons within the last decade that would destroy my motivation if it happened directly to me too.
- BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
  I don't think the point being made is that these are bad people, but rather that it's beneficial to avoid having them as teammates nonetheless. Perhaps there's a team/project/role for them somewhere that's better aligned with the set of principles that inspire them to care about their work more. If you dropped me into a role working on something distant to my own passions and principles, I would expect the same to be said of me.
  - vsareto 3y ago
    If job interviewing were better, we could move people around until most of us were happy. There is a lot going against you in terms of interviewing and job-hopping perception if you want to move around until you find the right team though.
hinkley 3y ago
Like being the roommate with the lowest tolerance for mess. You’re always cleaning and always yelling at your roommates who think three more dishes in the sink before I run the washer. Maybe my work experiences are karma for being a bad roommate in college…

by mjb 3y ago

belthesar 3y ago

> I've felt most burned out were when I worked with people who didn't care, who I couldn't trust to care, and so I ended up being the only person in the room who cared. Wow. I feel so seen with this particular sentence, having felt this at numerous jobs both professional and volunteer. Well said.

hinkley 3y ago
“Not my circus, not my clowns.” Makes me feel like I need a shower, but it’s still lighter than what I used to do. So I guess we are going to have an outage next week, almost on purpose. Great. See you then. I’ll bring popcorn.

danwee 3y ago

> I've felt most burned out were when I worked with people who didn't care, who I couldn't trust to care, and so I ended up being the only person in the room who cared. Been there, but I don't see it as a problem. On the contrary, by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. In the few situations in which I didn't get more than my peers (who didn't give a damn), I resigned. So, at least for me, being around people who don't care that much is an opportunity for me to by working normal hours (9-5) and caring, get a salary bump.

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
> On the contrary, by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. Then management cared. > In the few situations in which I didn't get more than my peers (who didn't give a damn), I resigned. Yeah, that's a legitimate response to nobody caring if you can.
JohnMakin 3y ago
> On the contrary, by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. This is definitely not always the case. I can think of cases in my own career where this attitude was actually detrimental to my success at the company.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Mine was detrimental for sure.
tambourine_man 3y ago
You were very lucky. There are many cases where the people who do the most are not recognized or compensated. It's even seen as detrimental, sometimes. I’d say most cases, in fact. Being able to standout is a skill.
sokoloff 3y ago
> by being the only one who cares, I got promotions and salary raises. Having also been in a similar situation, I'm going to guess that it wasn't actually the caring that made the difference, but the practical actions that you took (motivated by that caring) that made the difference. It's one thing to "care". It's another to do data recording and a subsequent Pareto analysis of the sources of outage/downtime/bugs/losses, then to apply efforts to solve the 20% of things that likely result in 80% of the losses, thus dramatically improving the operations of the company. Other people don't seem to care at all, while others "care too much" (meaning won't accept anything other than 100% fixes to 100% of issues, meaning they can skip over the hard work of data collection and analysis). Creating good outcomes is generally rewarded; mere caring is not.

vsareto 3y ago

I don't blame people for not caring. Generally I assume there's a decent reason for it. Caring has a cost, and some peoples' personalities mean they pay a heavier cost, and I don't think a large portion of our population around tech is maliciously trying to get salaries for no effort. Businesses will fire you at will if they have a reason regardless of how much you cared. Personally I still somewhat care, but it's hard when a company doesn't give raises or bonuses and blames the economy for it over the past 2 years. I've been in hearing distance of a few other reasons within the last decade that would destroy my motivation if it happened directly to me too.

BHSPitMonkey 3y ago
I don't think the point being made is that these are bad people, but rather that it's beneficial to avoid having them as teammates nonetheless. Perhaps there's a team/project/role for them somewhere that's better aligned with the set of principles that inspire them to care about their work more. If you dropped me into a role working on something distant to my own passions and principles, I would expect the same to be said of me.
- vsareto 3y ago
  If job interviewing were better, we could move people around until most of us were happy. There is a lot going against you in terms of interviewing and job-hopping perception if you want to move around until you find the right team though.

hinkley 3y ago

Like being the roommate with the lowest tolerance for mess. You’re always cleaning and always yelling at your roommates who think three more dishes in the sink before I run the washer. Maybe my work experiences are karma for being a bad roommate in college…