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This is a cool idea, but I wish we didn't call everything that is bike-friendly "Dutch". There are many towns and city centres that are good for cycling and wal

This is a cool idea, but I wish we didn't call everything that is bike-friendly "Dutch". There are many towns and city centres that are good for cycling and walking, across Europe and beyond.

brnt 3y ago
There are even many places in the Netherlands that aren't bike friendly. What people really mean is the urban, western region of the Netherlands. In many other places it's much more hit and miss.
- wjnc 3y ago
  Uh, if you’re bikeshaming, please be specific. I’d go so far as to say that the non urban, non western region of the Netherlands is more bike friendly than the urban western part. Noord-Brabant is pretty much one big bikepath, as is Limburg. On top of that most 50 and 80 kph roads are pretty solid for solo cycling. That’s thousands of usable kilometers. I’m really trying to think of counterexamples… Zeeland: Nice cycling, Friesland, Utrecht, Flevoland: the same. I’ve cycled at least a few thousand kilometers in each of those provinces. I’ll grant you that as a tour cyclist you don’t see the nitty gritty local routes that aren’t always safe. A bad urban design that’s quite common is a right turn for cars at a traffic light with a parallel cycling path sharing the same green. Cars get green and take the turn while the cyclist goes straight ahead.
  - brnt 3y ago
    Southern Limburg (and before you reveal you are a Hollander, no, thats not just Maastricht) is terrible, but the locals don't see it because they think bikes are a sport and tourists are, well, tourists. Things are not very different in the north (other than fewer hills). There isn't but should be a freelying bike path density index to quantify this, I think it should be helpful. But really, I have found that the more non-urban it gets, the more likely it is sideskirts where cars pass you at 80kmh at a meter distance are the best you can hope for. Data on how people commute supports this BTW: the Netherlands _also_ is a car loving country, yet those worlds rarely seem to speak. I'm not terribly Dutch, so I seem to be not observing some social and regional walls or something.
    - wjnc 3y ago
      Haha, I hail from that part of the country. So I know Limburg is not just Maastricht. It’s the other way around I guess. Most parts of Limburg are proud not being cocky Maastricht. So yeah I see your distinction. I made it myself too. Solo tour cycling I feel is safe everywhere. Only in the peleton have I met plenty of dangerous situation in the 50 and 80 roads. It’s why most people both cycle and drive, but hate “wielrenners”. Even your point about the space needed for a car to pass a cyclist is on spot. I feel safe when a car passes at a meter. I’m going straight, the car moves a 20 cm to the left from the middle of the lane.. fits perfectly. It’s a meter length to pass with 10 m/s speed difference. Even in Italy or Spain the cyclists don’t like the “Dutch distance” I’ve noticed. Perhaps I’m confirming my own bias here though.

This is a cool idea, but I wish we didn't call everything that is bike-friendly "Dutch". There are many towns and city centres that are good for cycling and walking, across Europe and beyond.

brnt 3y ago

There are even many places in the Netherlands that aren't bike friendly. What people really mean is the urban, western region of the Netherlands. In many other places it's much more hit and miss.

wjnc 3y ago
Uh, if you’re bikeshaming, please be specific. I’d go so far as to say that the non urban, non western region of the Netherlands is more bike friendly than the urban western part. Noord-Brabant is pretty much one big bikepath, as is Limburg. On top of that most 50 and 80 kph roads are pretty solid for solo cycling. That’s thousands of usable kilometers. I’m really trying to think of counterexamples… Zeeland: Nice cycling, Friesland, Utrecht, Flevoland: the same. I’ve cycled at least a few thousand kilometers in each of those provinces. I’ll grant you that as a tour cyclist you don’t see the nitty gritty local routes that aren’t always safe. A bad urban design that’s quite common is a right turn for cars at a traffic light with a parallel cycling path sharing the same green. Cars get green and take the turn while the cyclist goes straight ahead.
- brnt 3y ago
  Southern Limburg (and before you reveal you are a Hollander, no, thats not just Maastricht) is terrible, but the locals don't see it because they think bikes are a sport and tourists are, well, tourists. Things are not very different in the north (other than fewer hills). There isn't but should be a freelying bike path density index to quantify this, I think it should be helpful. But really, I have found that the more non-urban it gets, the more likely it is sideskirts where cars pass you at 80kmh at a meter distance are the best you can hope for. Data on how people commute supports this BTW: the Netherlands _also_ is a car loving country, yet those worlds rarely seem to speak. I'm not terribly Dutch, so I seem to be not observing some social and regional walls or something.
  - wjnc 3y ago
    Haha, I hail from that part of the country. So I know Limburg is not just Maastricht. It’s the other way around I guess. Most parts of Limburg are proud not being cocky Maastricht. So yeah I see your distinction. I made it myself too. Solo tour cycling I feel is safe everywhere. Only in the peleton have I met plenty of dangerous situation in the 50 and 80 roads. It’s why most people both cycle and drive, but hate “wielrenners”. Even your point about the space needed for a car to pass a cyclist is on spot. I feel safe when a car passes at a meter. I’m going straight, the car moves a 20 cm to the left from the middle of the lane.. fits perfectly. It’s a meter length to pass with 10 m/s speed difference. Even in Italy or Spain the cyclists don’t like the “Dutch distance” I’ve noticed. Perhaps I’m confirming my own bias here though.